HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004-03-04 - PB I
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1 STATE OF NEW YORK
2
3 i IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING
4
5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE
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8 I PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ;
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10 Held at the Francis Racker Center , Wilkins Road ,
11 Trumansburg , New York , on the 4th day of March ,
12 2004 , commencing at 7 : 30 PM .
13
REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS
14 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR
Notary Public
15 746 Route 41
Smithville Flats , New York 13841
16 ( ( 607 ) 863 - 4911
17 ; APPEARANCES :
TOWN BOARD :
18 I Supervisor Douglas Austic
Councilwoman Roxanne Marino
19 I Councilman Don Ellis
Councilman Lee Scott
20 Councilman Robert Weatherby
Town Clerk Marsha Georgia
21 1
Code Enforcement Officer Alex Rachun
22 ,
PLANNING BOARD :
23 t Chairman Richard Coogan
Board Member David Tyler
111 24 I Board Member Rodney Porter
Public Informational Meeting 2
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' d like to
2 welcome you all here tonight to another one
3 of the meetings to discuss the proposed
4 � Zoning Ordinance . How we ' re going to do
5 this is if anybody wants to speak to be sure
6 ' that we give your name to our stenographer
7 so she knows whose making comments when she
8 ! gets to complete the minutes .
9 So , the way we ' ll start out is
10 Mr . Frantz will explain the first - - or the
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11 draft of the Zoning Ordinance they ' re
12 working on now and from there we ' ll take
13 comments on what people think about the
14 draft . So , he will - - he ' s not going to go
15 through the whole Ordinance . He ' s going to
16 explain the principles on which it ' s based
17 and the different zones that are
18 j established .
19 So , you can hardly talk but we ' ll
20 make it .
21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We can make a
22 point there ' s
P a summary handout of what
23 I you ' re saying over there , George , if anybody
24 i missed it ( indicating ) .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : If anything the fact
2 ! that my voice is going I ' m just going to
3 condense my presentation .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If he keels over
5 we ' ll get him off the floor so - -
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - continue on .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : To begin with , the
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whole point , you know , this exercise is to
10 If update the Town Zoning Ordinance , make it in
410 11 some cases more flexible but also more
12 � specific and easier to manage , and also to
13 I help better control the development that we
14 } see coming with the arrival of the water in
15 Jacksonville .
16 i A couple of things first , there ' s
17 I three major components of the Zoning
18 Ordinance . One is the definition section ,
19 ° and a well written definition section that
20 defines any term that is not used in day - to -
21 t
day language is very important in a Zoning
22 Ordinance . And unfortunately it ' s one of
23 those things that a lot of communities sort
24 of glossed over or in some cases they devote
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1 the time to finding words that you can just
2 I go to Webster ' s and look them up .
3 Some of the words that are sort of
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critical to define in the Zoning Ordinance
5 include something like building height , you
6 know , what does the Town mean when it says
7 structure shall be no more than 36 feet ?
8 ! There ' s a dozen ways that can actually be
9 defined . So , the point is actually pinpoint
10 that definition . What ' s a professional
11 office ? Actually what ' s� Actually what a hospital ? What ' s
411 12 I a - - versus a clinic ? Because there are
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13 i Zoning - - there are areas of the Town where
14 i clinic would be an appropriate land use but
15 ' you certainly don ' t want a major medical
16 center . Sit - down restaurants versus
17 ; fast - food restaurants is another one . If
18 I you want to again have better definition in
19 your Zoning terms .
20 Right now the Town has two Zoning
21 I Districts and what we ' ve come up with is a
22 ( total of now up to eleven , is that right ?
23 i These are it . They ' ve been fluctuating .
410 24 The larcest District is the Al
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1 Agricultural Zoning District . It ' s the
2 yellow on the two maps ( indicating ) . And
3 the Al District is designed to protect
4 agriculture from too intense of
5 nonagricultural development , primarily
6 Residential development . But also , unlike
7 f many Zoning Ordinances , the proposed Zoning
8 for Agriculture in the Town of Ithaca - -
9 excuse me , Town of Ulysses allows what we ' re
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10 1 calling Agricultural Commerce or
411 11 i agricultural - related enterprises . Those
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12 1 types of businesses that many - - in fact I
13 would say most farms may have as a
14 i supplementary income source , okay ?
15 Today in this region especially , but
16 j I think throughout agriculture in America ,
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17 ; there ' s very , very few farms left that can
18 make it alone on the income generated by the
19 farming operations , okay ? A spouse may have
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20 1 a full - time or part - time job off the farm to
21 supplement the income or the farm owners may
22 have a side business that they operate on
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the farm that is used to supplement the farm
411 24 income . And unfortunately a lot of Zoning
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1 , Ordinances really don ' t provide for that and
2 what we ' re trying to do here is provide for
3 that type of business , make it a legal land
4 use in the Town of Ulysses , okay ?
5 j There ' s this A2 Special Agricultural
6 1 District . It ' s the Trumansburg Fairgrounds .
7 And the reason we ' ve done that is the
8 j fairgrounds are pretty unique and there ' s a
9 ( unique set of activities that happen on the
10 Trumansburg Fairgrounds that are appropriate
410 11 for that location but not necessarily
12 anywhere else in the Town . So , we ' ve sort
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13 ' of set up a special District that will allow
14 the fair that will be a legal land use
15 within the Town of Ulysses but at the same
16 time keep those activities in that one
17 location .
18 ' Next the orange is known as a Rural
19 Residential District . It has a minimum lot
20 � size of two acres and the idea is to permit
21 Residential development in those areas but
22 at a fairly low density . Again , of one - -
23 one dwelling every two acres , okay ?
24 The red down here southeastern corner
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1 1 along 96 and then around the Village is the
2 Moderate Density Residential District
3 ( indicating ) . And these are areas which
4 1 either will be served by or are served by
5 ` public water but also are served or may have
6 , the potential to be served at some point in
7 the future by public sewer . And so the
8 minimum lot sizes in the Moderate Density
9 areas falls down to 32 , 000 square feet or
10 1 roughly three - quarters - of - an - acre , okay ?
11 I One of the ideas here is to channel the
411 12 major Residential development of the future
13 in and around the Village of Trumansburg and
14 + then down here in the southeast corner of
15 the Town along the border with the Town of
16 ! Ithaca .
17
And , by the way , the Zoning in the
18 Town of Ithaca across the line is R30 , which
19 is actually minimum lot size of 30 , 000
20 square feet , okay ? So , it ' s sort of pretty
21 much the same sort of density as what ' s
22
across the border in the Town of Ithaca .
23 Another of the Residential Districts
24 I is the Multiple Residence District , and that
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1 will allow multi family - development in the
2 Town , apartment developments , and right now
3 i we ' re proposing two such Districts . There ' s
4 one that takes in the small True Haven
5 i Apartments there on - - off to the side of
6 Route 96 just before the Town of Ithaca
7 { line . There ' s a small apartment complex
8 there . And we ' ve also designated the - - in
9 Jacksonville proper the old - - old motel
10 I site just south of Ulysses Square which is
11 now essentially rental property . And the
12 reason for that is hopefully we can possibly
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get somebody to invest in redeveloping that
14 ` site for hopefully higher - quality housing .
15 t Mobile Home Park District , again we
16 ! have two mobile home parks in the Town , up
17 � here off Seneca Road and then down next to
18 the former Lakes Drive - Inn Theater , and so
19 1 we ' ve got a Zoning District to continue to
20 � permit those two mobile home parks ,
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21 manufactured housing parks ( indicating ) .
22 And also if somebody wants to establish
23 j another such development in the Town they
24 ' would have to come to the Town Board and
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1 request the rezoning and meet the standards
2 that are laid out in the back of the Zoning
3 i Ordinance , okay ?
4 The dark purple here , Jacksonville ,
5 , and over here at Waterburg , these are the
6 Hamlet Zoning Districts , the Hamlet
7 ! Districts , and they ' re designed to allow
8 more dense compact development in
9 Jacksonville and in Waterburg , okay
10
I ( indicating ) ? And there the lot size can be
11 I as low as 6 , 000 square feet , okay ? Again ,
12 provided there ' s public water and either
13 public sewer or some sort of privately - owned
14 1 Health Department monitored sewage system .
15
You ' re not going to get septic on
16 6 , 000 square foot lots so while that ' s a
17 1 minimum lot size at least in the near future
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18 ! we probably won ' t see that type of
19
development . But what we want to do is at
20 i least have - - provide the opportunity for
21 somebody who wants to come in and do that
22 type of development in Jacksonville and
23 ' possibly in Waterburg .
24 The Hamlet District also allows some
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1 small scale Retail and other type Business
2 development within the District . It ' s sort
3 j of what we call a mixed - use type Zoning
4 District in the business .
5 i The next District is the B1 , which is
6 the primary Commercial Zoning District being
7 proposed . And the B1 Districts again start
8 I up here northwest of the Village . The
9 largest is this area that encompasses from
10 � the fairgrounds down to Maguire Chevrolet or
411 11 just beyond both sides of Route 96
12 ( indicating ) . It allows for some expansion
13 actually eastward behind Seafuses ( phonetic )
14 1 and Maguire at some point in the future .
15
Bar Angus , around the Stover Lumber Company ,
16 around the LL Hammond Furniture and the auto
17 I
repair business . This one is Ulysses Square
18 ( indicating ) .
19 Further down the one around the
20 corner of Van Dorn Road ( phonetic ) , Rascals .
21
Further down the one actually bracketing the
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old Soikes Barbecue Restaurant building .
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23 ' Again both sides of Route 96 because we ' re
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S not just accommodating the existing
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1 businesses that are in the Town but we ' re
2 also providing for opportunities for new
3 businesses to come into the Town and for
4 existing ones to expand , okay ? Continuing
5 down the area on either side of Sleeping
6 I Bear Futon along Route 96 is proposed to be
7 a Business zone . And then finally the area
8 between Trump Corners Road and the south
9 side of the - - what is it - - Ithaca - - the
10 . Honda place ( indicating ) ?
11 A VOICE : Paradise Cafe .
12 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , Paradise Cafe
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113 i is in the middle of that . The motorcycle
14 place also , Business Zones , of course the
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15 1 Glenwood Pines Restaurant , the West Shore
16 Grocery , and then there ' s one where there
17 was the old motel just south of the
18 i intersection of 89 and Craft Road , and then
19 land just actually on the opposite side just
20 north of the Cayuga Inn are proposed for
21 { Business El Zones . And then finally the
22 i area around Taughannock Farms Inn , again
23 proposed to be B1 ( indicating ) .
24 !
The brown here and here , those are
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1 i the proposed Light Industrial Districts
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2 ( indicating ) . These Zoning Districts are
3 going to allow what ' s been called Light
4 Industry , i . e . it ' s low intensity industry ,
5 i essentially the type of manufacturing
6 enterprises that bring components into the
7 site and assemble something from those
8 • components . They don ' t actually bring in
9 raw materials to manufacture items , rather
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10 1 it ' s more bringing components in using
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11 I electric motors as really the main power
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source to manufacture or do final assembly
13 ! for products . In addition it also allows
14 I research and development - type businesses and
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15 ; conference centers in this - - in these
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16 i proposed Light Industrial Districts .
17 And then finally the dark green is a
18 ` Park and Recreation Zoning District
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19 ( indicating ) . It ' s primarily a Residential
20 District with few restrictions to sort of
21
recognize the fact that it encompasses some
22 fairly environmentally sensitive or at least
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23 1 scenicly important areas or again the Nature
411 24
Center , Cayuga Nature Center .
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1 I Now , within all the Districts we ' re
2 I going to have something called permitted
3 • uses and under permitted uses these are
4 items that are permitted by right . You go
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5 ' in , you get your Building Permit , and you do
6 whatever you want to do within that category
7 of land uses , okay ?
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8 Then some uses will require Site Plan
9 Approval . And those are primarily in the
10 Business and the more Commercial and
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11 Industrial type uses would require Site Plan
411 12 Approval . And what Site Plan Approval is ,
13 it ' s a Planning Board review and approval of
14 , the developer ' s plans . The key thing is is
15 that generally in a Site Plan Approval if
16 the plans meet the requirements of the
17 1 Zoning Ordinance , if they meet the
18 requirements outlined in the standards , the
19 design standards for that particular land
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20 use , Planning Board has very limited leeway
21 to deny . They can approve , they can approve
22 + with conditions , but if the proposed uses
23 comply with the Zoning it ' s only in extreme
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24 circumstances where a site plan could be
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1 I denied and be upheld by the courts .
2
Then finally the third type of use ,
3 j the more intensive uses , are things that are
4 allowed by Special Permit , and Special
5 Permit is a little more in - depth review than
6 Site Plan Approval applies for . And in some
7 I cases the Town could deny a Special Permit
8 if it were to find that that particular land
9 use or whatever that particular proposal
10 happens to be is just not appropriate for
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11 that particular site , okay ?
12
But the thing about Special Permit is
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13 i that the onus is on the Town to make the
14 case that that particular proposal ' s not a
15 ! good idea in X location , okay ? The - - it ' s
16 the Town has - - the burden of proof is on
17 I the Town , not the applicant , okay ? So , the
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18 uses are permitted , they ' re just subject to
19 this extra level of review , okay ?
20 } Mentioned before , one
of the
21 important things , the design and operating
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22 standards is another feature of this Zoning
23
Ordinance that has been added , and
24 essentially what they are are basic criteria
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1 1 that the applicants have to meet before they
2 can get their development proposed . And it
3 can be criteria like a buffer area between
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4 ' Commercial and Residential Districts .
5 ? There ' s specific lighting standards for all
6 ; development in the Town . In the case of ,
7 ; let ' s say , something like Multiple
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8 Residence , an apartment complex , there ' s
9 very specific standards that say , for
10 instance , there ' s a minimum setback of 25 or
410 11 so feet from anything within the development
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12 i and the side yard line or the rear yard
13 i line . There ' s minimum requirements for
14 parking , minimum requirements for the
15 driveways and everything . Maximum height
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restrictions on the buildings , maximum - - or
17 i actually minimum set for the amount of open
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18 space or lawn areas that would be required
19 ( in these types of developments . So , you
20 don ' t get people packing , you know , a whole
21 i lot of dwellings onto a very small parcel .
22 � Other things , self - service storage
23 ( facilities , again , allowed but subject to
24 specific standards that include things like
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1 ( landscaping to maybe visually screen them a
2 little more from the public road and from
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3 j adjoining properties . Saw mills , things
4 ' like noise and the like we tried to deal
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with . Campgrounds , again some standards for
6 them .
7 ' And I think again that ' s , you know ,
8 sort of the general outline . I ' m not going
9 to go into a District by District
10 description because it could put us all
11 asleep , but I think what I ' ll do is just I ' m
12 I going to stop speaking now and just we ' ll
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13 I open the floor to questions , because I think
14 that ' s going to be the most efficient
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15 approach here . If people have specific
16 questions I can answer them for you .
17 , So , unless you have anything to
18 say . . .
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19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s fine .
20 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Any
21 I questions ?
22 JOHN WERTIS : Yeah , I ' m interested
23 in the definition -
} - you don ' t need my name
24 I3 for this , do you ?
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1 ; COURT REPORTER : Yes .
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2 JOHN WERTIS : John Wertis , Searsburg
3 I Road , W - E - R - T , as in Tom , I - S , as in Sam .
4 The definition of farm - -
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
6 JOHN WERTIS : - - on page 9 - -
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7 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Mm - hm .
8 JOHN WERTIS : - - in the big pack - -
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , go ahead , I ' m
10 listening .
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11 ! JOHN WERTIS : - - well , I understand
12 ! the first part , " land of not less than 10
13 acres , $ 10 ; 000 cross " sort of fits with the
14 Ag District regs - -
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15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Mm - hm
16 JOHN WERTIS : - - but I don ' t
17
understand the second part , " or less land
18 i but $ 20 , 000 gross . "
19 Is that also - - where did that come
20 fI from ? Just curious .
21 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The idea o
i Y of
22 I the what , the land less than 10 acres ?
23 JOHN WERTIS : Yeah , that ' s the part
411 24 I don ' t understand .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : I guess we didn ' t
2 � want people on parcels of 10 acres to have a
3 little symbolic garden or whatever and then
4 I attempt to call them a farm - - call
5 ! themselves a farm and then begin some of the
6 stuff like the cottage industries or
7 Agricultural Commerce that ' s also allowed
8 within the Ag District .
9 1 But having said that let me also say
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10 I this : That Ag & Markets has suggested that
11 ( we drop this and I - - I think we will and
12 ( really just go with their definition .
13 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , I think
14 1 this definition here basically came from the
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( definition that the assessment - - Department
16 of Assessment was using for farmland
17
reduction in assessments so this is not what
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18 ( Ag & - - Ag & Markets calls a farming
19 operation so we ' re probably going to change
20 that to more relate to what Ag & Markets
21 says is a farm . They understood what the
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definition , where it came from , but they
23 i didn ' t really like it , so . . .
24 JOHN WERTIS : Okay . I ' m still not
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1 1 understanding the funny business about a
2 smaller acreage and a bigger amount of
3 money .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way
5 the assessment - -
6 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : They ' re looking
7 towards greenhouses and things like this .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That could be a
9 couple of acres and have a large income and
10 ! then you have other people that have to have
11 the larger acreage to make the same amount
12 of income , that ' s the way the Assessment
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13 Bureau works , but we ' re probably going to
14 1 relook at that and make it more reasonable ,
15 simplify it . Does that answer your - -
16 i probably not .
17 +� JOHN WERTIS : Probably not .
18 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s - - but again ,
20 John , it ' s definitely , you know , up for
21 1 revision , so . . .
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22 JOHN WERTIS : I hear that . That ' s
23 1 good .
411 24 !!I I still get a little confused in your
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1 Al Agriculture District ct in exactly
2 understanding what an Agricultural lot is .
3 It ' s not defined in the - - it ' s sort of
4 defined in the body of the Al stuff on page
5 20 . It ' s not in the definitions . Is
6 an Agricultural lot my house and barns ? Is
7 it - -
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : A farmstead .
9 i JOHN WERTIS : - - or the whole
10 3 farmstead ?
11 I If it ' s 300 acres that ' s the
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12 � Agricultural lot ?
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : If it ' s one parcel ,
14
yeah .
15 I JOHN WERTIS : If it ' s one parcel .
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16 i GEORGE FRANTZ : But
you know , if
17 1 it ' s a smaller parcel that happens to be
18 1 maybe , you know , five acres or so but it has
19 a farmhouse and a barn complex , an operating
20 barn complex and stuff , that ' s obviously
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21 Agricultural , so - - but I think too that ' s
22 ! another thing that we ' re looking at , this
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23 I concept of having Agricultural lot .
I24 1 JOHN WERTIS : It certainly is
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1 confusing .
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2 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Hm - mm ?
JOHN WERTIS : It certainly is
4 confusing I think for the average - - average
5 me reader .
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6 RICHARD BERGREN : Richard Bergren .
7 ! And I have a lot on Trumansburg Road . A
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long time , years ago , from the bank we
9 understand it was Business and Residential .
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Now I ' ve got quite a bit invested , I ' ve
411 11 I never requested a Agricultural Zoning onto
12 it , which would have been - - reduced the
13 i taxes . I don ' t like the idea of it being
14 changed to Agricultural now after 10 years
15 of paving taxes that has a Business they
16 i zoned proper . I don ' t believe that ' s
17 1 proper .
18 And I have mentioned that at one of
19 our other comprehensive meetings . It
20 involved these number of years no business
21 has been there , but as the Town knows I have
22 made many applications . I turned down
23 Wal - Marts up there because it was opposition
24 to it . They agreed to extend water up there
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1 and some of the neighbors don ' t like it so I
2 withdrew that offer from - - to Wal - Mart but
3 I ' ve never given up the idea of buying it
4 ( for a business . And as I say , I ' ve got a
5 II lot of money invested in it and not only the
6 proper property but also in taxes over the
7 i years . That ' s about it .
8
GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
9 DAVE KLINE : Dave Kline . This is
10 directed to Doug . Can you tell me what the
411 11 minimum lot size is for the Town of Lansing ?
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anywhere ?
13 DAVE KLINE : In the Village ,
14 ( anyplace . I know you know the answer
15 because I ' ve heard it from you .
16 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Jeez . Well , I ' m
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17 i assuming that in the Village of Lansing
18 there - -
19 ; DAVE KLINE : The Village or Town , I
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don ' t care .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Okay . In the
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Village or the Town and some of their
23 I Residential Districts it ' s probably pretty
410 24 ' small because they have water , sewer . I
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1 think it ' s 30 - - 32 to 35 , 000 feet where
2 there ' s water and sewer . Out in the Ag , you
3 f know , where there is maybe water and not
4 i sewer or where there ' s neither one the lots
5 are similar in size to the two - acre lot that
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6 i is required here basically because - -
7 DAVE KLINE : I disagree with that .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
9 I DAVE KLINE : I disagree with that .
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10 In looking through the building developments
11 ' on East Shore Drive - -
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , that ' s in
13 the other Districts . That ' s where they have
14 I water or sewer .
15 1 DAVE KLINE : No , they don ' t have
16 water down there on East Shore Drive where
17 I ' m talking .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
19 Well , maybe I ' m wrong . Yep , I think they
20 E do .
21 DAVE KLINE : Oh , do they ?
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , but it ' s
23 similar because what ' s regulating that is
24 I actually what the Health Department will
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1 approve to put in your septic system with
2 the well on the lot , so it ' s basically
3 between one - and - three - quarters , two acres .
4 DAVE KLINE : What ' s our Health
5 Department require in Ulysses ?
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing .
7 DAVE KLINE : Not five acres ?
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
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9 I DAVE KLINE : Okay .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Between
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411 one - and - a - half to - - depends on the shape of
12 i the lot and how they can get this 150 - to
13 I 200 - foot circle in there , so somewhere
14 between one - and - three - quarters and j q two
15 I acres . Somewhere in Lansing you ' ll find
16 j that in places that are not serviced by
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17 i water and sewer are similar . They may have
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less frontage but the acreage is about the
19 I same .
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20 i DAVE KLINE : You guys all know this ,
21 I you ' re telling us that farmers aren ' t going
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22 ; to pass their farms onto the next
23 generation , there ' s not going to be no
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farmers , why do
y you want so much
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1 i Agricultural if there ' s not going to be any
2 i farmers ?
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3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Who are you
4 E asking that ?
5 DAVE KLINE : All of you .
6 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I ' m sorry , did
7 l you say that we ' re saying that farmers
8 ' aren ' t going to - -
9 i DAVE KLINE : He just said , and it ' s
10 been said in here in all meetings , that
11 ++ farms are going down the hill , they ' re not
12 going to be passed on , young people aren ' t
13 going to go into farming .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : You ' ve never heard
15 that from me .
16 COTJNCILWOM_AN MARINO : I ' ve had
17 farmers say that to me .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Did you say
19 � that ?
20
GEORGE FRANTZ : No , never .
21 DAVE KLINE : No , Stanley .
22 STANLEY KOSKINEN : There ' s nobody to
23 j take my empire over and I started it and
i
24 there ' s only two or three full - time farmers
I --
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411 1
Public Informational Meetinc 26
1 in the Town of Ulysses period and after that
I
2 ( there isn ' t going to be any .
3 DAVE KLINE : This was brought up at
4 t the last meeting from that gentleman right
5 there ( indicating ) .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I don ' t
7 � think anybody ' s trying to say that - - that
8 it won ' t be - - somebody will be farming and
9 the idea is if that ' s going to be true you
10 I have to have something , you have to have
11 1 some land for them to use . So , the idea of
12 this is to try to save the farmland . Maybe
13 not the farmer himself but the land .
i
14 1 DAVE KLINE : You shouldn ' t be in the
15 position to tell me I ' ve got to save my
16 land - -
17 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
18 1 DAVE KLINE : You shouldn ' t be in the
19 1 position to tell me that I have to save my
20 land for some potential farmer .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I don ' t think
22 I we ' re telling you - - we ' re not telling you
23 that .
24 DAVE KLINE : Well , okay .
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I
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have the
2 {j right to sell Residential lots on your
3 I property .
!!1
4 ! SANDY KLINE : But we ' re not
5 1 Residential .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You still have
7 the right to sell .
8 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : The Al Agricultural
9 District allows Residential development .
10 SANDY KLINE : But a minimum how many
11 acres ?
411 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s not
13 ; really settled yet .
14 � SANDY KLINE : But according to your
15 Zoning you ' re saying - -
16 , SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Three acres .
17
SANDY KLINE : - - fiVe ,
18 I DAVE KLINE : I got two things on
19 j that and they still won ' t give me an answer
20 i which things truly - -
21
SANDY KLINE : You ' ve changed it
22 since we got the last one ?
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , this
1
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IPublic Informational Meeting 28
i
1 ! hasn ' t been changed since the beginning of
2 January , this document ( indicating ) .
3 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ?
{
COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : This document
5 hasn ' t been changed since the beginning of
6 January when we started getting - -
,
7 SANDY KLINE : The document so many
8 feet of road frontage ?
9 j DAVE KLINE : I ' ve got two documents
10 k in this development that I talked to you
11 j last meeting , one - - one was 500 feet , one
12 i was 250 - - or I ' ll show you .
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think the
14 one - -
1
15 DAVE KLINE : I never got an answer
i
I
16 which one was right .
17 ii COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Yeah , the most
18 ' current one , I think it ' s dated January 5th ,
19 9 2004 .
20 DAVE KLINE : You think . Which one ' s
21 the most current ?
22 STJPERVISOR AUSTIC : The one you
23 should have says 500 .
24 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : January 5th ,
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410 Public Informational Meeting 29
1 2004 .
2 j SANDY KLINE : So , if you have a
3 1 property with 1 , 000 feet of road frontage
i
4 ' but it goes back 5 , 000 feet you ' re saying
5 then the minimum - -
6 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not saying
7 i anything .
8 -
SANDY KLINE : - we sell 500 feet we
9 got to sell it all the way back ?
10 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not saying
11 1 that .
410 12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No .
13 SANDY KLINE : How are you going to
14 sell the land in the back then if you don ' t
15 have the road frontage ?
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You can ' t . The
17 whole thing is we can ' t - - we ' ve been
18 j working on this Zoning Ordinance for two or
19 I three years . We ' ve come to the point where
20 i the major contention today is probably the
21
Ag District . There ' s the most comments from
22
the Planning Board and the Town Board as to
23 ( this is the argument , so we ' re out here now
24 1 to - - trying to find out what the comments
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411 'Public Informational Meeting 30
1 j are as to the last proposal that was
2 submitted which includes the 500 feet , I ' m
I
3 not sure how many acres are , three acres ?
4 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Three .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , that ' s what
6 we ' re here to get comments on . We ' re not
7 saying that ' s what ' s
going to end up as ,
8 we ' re not saying anything , we just need to
9 know what people think about that proposal
10 in the Ag District .
11 I BOARD MEMBER TYLER : To go back to
72 your comment though , the face of farming g is
13 changing , that ' s true . That ' s an evident
14 ' fact and that ' s one of the things that we ' re
15 struggling with .
16 i JOHN WERTIS : So , relative to those
17 back lots they just mentioned , could that be
18 I developed as a
p Residential through some sort
19 i� of planned development ?
20 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right , through a
21 I subdivision or cluster subdivision or
22 I something where you could go back off the
23 ! road , not - - the road frontage then could be
411 24 smaller because you ' re just building the
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1 road and you could go back and develop it as
2 1
a cluster subdivision which would probably
3 be the best way to do to save road frontage
4 4 and reduce the - - the number of driveways .
5 However , most of the development in the Town
6 of Ulysses is individual homes so in order
7 to get that system to work and to encourage
8 somebody to do that for the benefit that it
9 would give you ' d have to have somebody who
10 I is probably interested in building three or
l
11 1 four or several homes . So , that ' s the
12 dilemma . That ' s the better idea but how to
13 I encourage it .
14 JUDITH REESE : I have a kind of
15 different concern . Judith Reese . I ' m kind
16 of curious as to how you decided to bring
17 I of the area the
� of Hamlet so far in this
18 ( direction of Jacksonville Road . Right now
19 it ' s , you know , it ' s pretty much close to
20 I down in here ( indicating ) . How was that
21 decision made ?
22 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : It - - actually the
23 homes in Jacksonville actually extend south
24 E to about this point already ( indicating ) .
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1
1 JUDITH REESE : On 96 but not on
2 I Jacksonville Road .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , Jacksonville
4 Road they ' re fairly close to either section
5 ( of the teal , and so the idea is that there ' s
6 I several parcels here , not large parcels but
7 parcels , that when you have the Hamlet type
8 density somebody could go in and do some
9 1 small - scale Residential development there .
10 JUDITH REESE : But I ' m not sure that
I
11 answers my question .
III
12 • SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : As a matter of
13 maybe clarification , there was a meeting in
14 Jacksonville sometime last summer , right ,
15 and it was the Jacksonville Community
16 Association and they got together with
17 George and the idea was to set up where ' s
18 the Hamlet of Jacksonville ? And from that
19 � discussion that ' s what developed .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : And it ' s also
21 � actually again this line here , this big
22 ! property house , okay ? You know , rather than
23 chopping parcels of land up .
III 24 I CHAIRMAN COOGAN : I can - - I think
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1 the easy way to explain it : When you look
2 i at the Community Association , what we
3 thought would be walked around . We went
4
from Coles Road to Cold Springs Road and we
5 sort of looked at it as an oval shape so
6 I that it would be anything that could be
7 1 walked . When George put it on the map what
I
8 he did was follow property lines and one of
9 the oddities that came up was Golden ' s
10 j property because their property abutted the
11 1 houses close by Jacksonville but when you
411 12 took that property it immediately expanded
13 the Hamlet District to look much bigger than
14 we sort of talked about in the meeting . And
15 it was the difference between drawing that
16 1 oval on a map and then following the
17 I contours of the property .
18
GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s roughly ,
19 (
you know , 2 , 500 feet from the main
20 1 intersection of Jacksonville Road and
f
21 1 Route - - Trumansburg Road to the outer edges
22 of the Hamlet Zoning District , that ' s
23 roughly half - a - mile , roughly the distance
24 people are comfortable walking . And then ,
!
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411 Public Informational Meeting 34
i
I
1 i yeah , as Dick said , the - - then property
2 II lines came into play and that ' s why we have
3 ! this particular shape .
4 DAVE KLINE : Me again . As before ,
5 { we didn ' t know about this meeting . We don ' t
6 { get the Ithaca Journal . Someone called us
7 j and told us .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It was on the
9 radio four or five times today .
10 DAVE KLINE : I work all day , I ' m
11 sorry .
410 12 f SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know .
13 DAVE KLINE : But I ' d like to see - -
14
we need to get more people to the meetings .
15 I Marsha can probably tell me how many
16
landowners are in the Town of Ulysses . You
17 1 got an idea ?
18 y TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : Well , there ' s
19 almost 3 , 000 parcels .
20 DAVE KLINE : So , what would it cost
I
21 ' to mail a flyer to everybody ?
22 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s legal
23 requirements that we can ' t do that .
411 24 DAVE KLINE : Why is that ?
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411 Public Informational Meeting 35
I
1 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Because if
2 someone were to not get the card for some
I
3 I unknown reason then we failed to notify
4 these people .
5 DAVE KLINE : Well , let me ask you
6 I this - -
7 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You all have the
8 right to listen to the radio , to read the
9 paper or whatever , so if you miss it you
10 1 miss it . But if we didn ' t notify an
I
11 I individual person that we had a meeting then
12 there may be some legal repercussions later
13 on , so we can ' t really do that . We can ' t
14 e - mail , we can ' t do any of that kind of
15 stuff , because we have to notify - - have to
i
16 i have - - every person has to have the same
17 right to get that notice .
18 DAVE KLINE :TES
That ' s why I ' m saying
19
if everybody was mailed something they ' d
20 j have the same right .
21 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well -
22 j
TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But addresses
23 I aren ' t always right .
24 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Addresses aren ' t
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Pui1 '� lic Informational Meeting 36
} A
1 always right and all kinds of stuff . We
2 thought about it . We looked into it . It
3 scares you but that ' s the rule .
4 DAVE KLINE : Well , anyway , if you
5 could do it - -
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If we could do .
it . . .
8 { DAVE KLINE : You ' re saying you
9 i can ' t ?
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right .
11 DAVE KLINE : I think a flyer should
12 go to everybody telling them what you ' re
13 doing or trying to do and give them a
14 checklist of the Ag 1 , the Ag 2 , boom , boom ,
15 boom , and if they don ' t come to the meeting
16 that ' s their problem , they ' ve lost . If they
17 1 come to the meeting let them check what they
18 would like to be . Not guaranteed but it
19 + will give you a true opinion of what people
20 ! want .
21 ( Because I would not be here tonight
22 Ii unless someone called me because I don ' t g et
23 i the Ithaca Journal and I don ' t listen to the
S24 radio all day .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
' Public Informational Meeting 37
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , we
2 1 can ' t - - we can ' t go out and knock on
3 l individuals ' door , we can ' t do that .
4 DAVE KLINE : I know you can send me
5 II a tax bill and everybody in the County .
6 ; SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : Well , that ' s
i
7 true , we do that , but we need that , you
8 know . No , I know what you ' re saying but
9 I there ' s problems with doing that .
10 DAVE KLINE : I just don ' t think one
11 guy should be able to come in and design - -
411 12 SUPERVISOR. RUSTIC : One guy didn ' t .
13 DAVE KLINE : Well , he designed it ,
14 i you guys are voting on it trying to approve
15 it .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , we ' ve been
17
changing it over two years here . Some of
18 the things he put in we kind of completely
19 threw out and some of them are different
20 r ideas that we had . All he did was the
21 framework of what we had originally , what
22 was in the comprehensive plan and what he
f
23 I thought worked in other towns , so he ' s not
411 24 telling us what to do .
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4 , Public Informational Meeting 38
I
1 1 DAVE KLINE : Well , I know that .
2 ( He ' s the one that designed it though .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . The
4 original copy which we had public
5 informational meetings on what , two years
6 - ago in the spring , that was the real
7 I original he came in with . So , that was - -
8 this one I would say is quite a bit
I
9 different than that one . So , we ' re still
10 defining it and refining it but I think
i
11 ( we ' re close and that ' s why .
12 � RUSS CARPENTER : Doug , can I make a
13 ' comment on your size of your lots in the Ag
14 i District ? Russ Carpenter , I ' m sorry .
15 j You ' re looking at three - acre lot in the Ag
16 District or possibly a 250 to 500 feet road
17 frontage . It was my observation just
18 looking around Town at the different parcels
19 that are already intact and a majority of
20 i the people out there if they have much more
I
21 than an acre - and - a - half , two acres to
22 maintain it just goes fallow . It becomes
I
23 J scrub land . Personally I don ' t care to see
24 that so that - - in that sort of an issue I
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1 would rather see a little bit smaller lot
i
2 1 for the average homeowner , because the
3 I average homeowner cannot and will not take
4 , care of a three - acre parcel or five - acre
5 parcel or whatever . So , when you get up to
6 your bigger sizes of parcels that ' s going to
7 be more of a problem .
8 ' BOARD MEMBER TYLER : So , are you
9 1 saying then that we should say you got a
10 smaller parcel but just own a part of the
11 farm ?
12 RUSS CARPENTER : What I ' m saying is
13 I the average person cannot take care of three
14 acres . Are you - - how many acres do you set
15
your house on personally ?
16 I BOARD MEMBER TYLER : Well , I mean - -
17 ! BOARD MEMBER PORTER : He ' s not a
18
I good example .
I
19 1 RUSS CARPENTER : Well , Rodney , how
l
20 many acres do you sit on ?
Z1 1 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : Five . .
22
SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you maintain
23 all that five acres ? Do you mow it all ?
I
410 24 I BOARD MEMBER PORTER : ( Nods head )
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1 RUSS CARPENTER : How many people
2 ; around you do that ?
3 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : Nobody .
4 RUSS CARPENTER : Okay , that ' s my
5 , point I ' m trying to make .
6
BOARD MEMBER PORTER : I think that
7 we sort of did take that into consideration
8 and that ' s why three acres and not five
9 1 acres , something like that . Also limiting
10 1 the depth to - - to not only limit on the
11 ? road frontage but the depth . And if
12 ! somebody doesn ' t want three acres , can ' t
13 maintain three acres , there are a lot of
14 ! places in the Town they can build houses on
15 i smaller lots .
70 i RUSS CARPENTER : So , that ' s just
1
17 I something for you - -
i
18 { SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your
19 point . We ' ve heard it before so we got
20 ' that .
21 I GEORGE FRANTZ : In actually getting
22 back to the whole issue of , you know ,
23 getting the public notified , sometimes
24.
j there ' s nothing like Letter to the Editor if
I
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I
1 you want people out there .
2 DAVE KLINE : Well , see , I don ' t read
3 4 the paper , I don ' t get the paper .
4 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we can ' t - -
5 you don ' t listen to the radio , you don ' t
6 read the newspaper , there ' s not much we can
I
7 do - -
8 DAVE KLINE : You can send me
9 something .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - so . . .
11 A VOICE : That may be a great waste
12 of our tax dollars in this day and age , Y ou
13 know . There ' s a certain amount of
14 i responsibility that you have to take for
15
yourself .
I
16 1 DAVE KLINE : That ' s why I ' m here .
17 E GEORGE FRANTZ : We should keep it - -
18 I the side discussions because our
19 stenographer is trying to get everything
20 down .
21 Are there any other questions ?
22 ; Comments ?
23 ; JANE BOWEN :
� Jane Bowen , B - O -W - E - N .
24 The Babcock property on 96 , what ' s that
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P .,., .olzc Informational Meeting 42
1 classed as now ? And they ' re going out , what
2 can happen to that ?
3 + GEORGE FRANTZ : That right now ,
4 1 it ' s - - it ' s classed - - it ' s in the Al
5 Agricultural Zoning District because it does
6 qualify as one of those Agricultural - related
7 J enterprises . The news of the fact that
8 they ' re moving out has us now thinking
9 ' differently , cu know , because - -
10 } JANE BOWEN : Like what ?
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , two
411 12 possibilities to date have been , you know ,
13 t
i zone the land - - the buildings and the land
14 around them , let ' s say , Light Industrial ,
I
15 I
okay , and that would allow similar type
16 I businesses , not Agricultural Businesses but
17 low- intensity type Industry or office or
18 ' research - type businesses to go into that
19 building .
I
20 (I A second option , and again we haven ' t
21 ! even talked about it yet so , you know , we
22 really don ' t know what ' s going to come out
? 3 of this , but the other option would be for a
I
24 i
Bl Business District which would allow
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1 Retail or Commercial development , okay ?
2 So , that ' s my brainstorming at this
3 point but it is an issue that , yeah , we ' ve
4 got to now address on this Zoning matter .
JANE BOWEN : Interested in that
6 J because my property butts onto theirs .
7 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
8 i JOHN WERTIS : John Wertis again .
9 I ' m still picking away at your Al District a
10 I little bit . In your introduction , as I
1
11 1 understood it , you said that when it comes
12 ( to permitted uses you essentially walk in
13 and you get your Building Permit and you
14 I walk out . But in the Al District under
15 permitted uses for Agricultural lots on the
16 1 back of that page these uses only pertain to
17 Agricultural lots , Agricultural Commerce ,
18 and it says subject to Site Plan Approval ,
19 so it ' s a little different , is it not - -
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Here again - -
21 JOHN WERTIS : - - than just walking
22
in and - -
23
GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , what I - - I
24 I went through some of these uses without
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1 actually saying whether they fell into that
2 permitted , permitted by site plan , or
3 permitted by Special Permit . I was sort of
4 throwing things out . But , yeah , there -
5 ! looking through - -
6 ( JOHN WERTIS : Well , then , and just
I
7 I to continue a little bit in that section , if
8 you skip down to 4 . 5 , uses allowed by site
9 plan , I can ' t quite figure out why those
10 were separated out or why they wouldn ' t fall
11 back under the Agricultural Commerce . I
12 guess airstrip , I can understand that .
13 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : Some of those
14 I
things -
-
15 I JOHN WERTIS : So , those are the ones
16 that don ' t fall under Agricultural Commerce ?
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , things like a
18 cottage industry , for instance - -
19
JOHN WERTIS : Okay .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - it may qualify as
21 Agricultural Commerce but it - - at the same
22
j time it could be - - cottage industry can be
23 i any number of things including , one example
24 would be right now Flowcack� g ( phonetic ) , I
•
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1 think we discussed that , although he might
2 be a little too large .
3 I See , cottage industries do not have
4 to necessarily be Agricultural in nature .
5 ! They ' re just something that ' s owned by the
6 owner of the property and it ' s limited in
7 1 size by things like the number of employees
8 ) and - -
9 ! JOHN WERTIS : Something like a cider
10 mill would come under the Agricultural
11 , Commerce at the top and - -
12 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Cider mill , yes ,
13 would be Agricultural Commerce .
14 1 JOHN WERTIS : And the other thing
15 that ' s not completely clear to me is retail
i
16 i sales from the farm , that I think there ' s
17 i some roadside stand ?
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
r
19 , JOHN WERTIS : But say you start the
20 cider mill , you ' re e going to sell the cider
21 right there , that would be permitted , right ?
22 ? GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
23 f
JOHN WERTIS : Okay .
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact , one - - and
s E
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Public Informational Meeting 46
l this is something that we have to take up
2 with the Ag & Markets people , you know ,
3 we ' re limiting the size of roadside stands
I
4 1 to 240 square feet . That doesn ' t say that
I
5 Ii you can ' t have something larger , at least in
6 j the Al District , because something that ' s
7 larger than 240 square feet would still
8 qualify under Agricultural Commerce - -
9 JOHN WERTIS : Right .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - okay ?
11 1 JOHN WERTIS : Thank you .
12 � SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other
13 ! comments ? If you wish
y you can also - - I
14 have one do you want to make this comment
15 or you just want us to ?
16 TOM MYERS : Oh , I ' d
just like you
17 1 all to look at it . Actually Kris wrote it
18 up .
19 II SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you can
20 ! submit written comments . I have one here
21 that we don ' t have enough copies but I will
22
get them so everybody can have one to the
23 Town office or you can e - mail me .
411 24
You don ' t have a computer you can ' t ,
1
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1 all right ?
2 DAVE KLINE : Got one of them .
3 ` SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You can e - mail
4 I me at the address . If anybody wants to know
5 it ' s on the web 7Dage . Does anybody really
6 ` want to know it right now ? I could tell
7 you . It ' s available anywhere you want to
8 find it on the web page . So , if you want to
9 I send comments or if you want to write
10 comments down , send them - - send them to the
11 Town Hall or however you want to get them to
12 us , that ' d be fine too . So , we ' ll be taking
13 those kind of comments until we decide where
14 ; we ' re going with this Ordinance .
15 I Stan .
16 STAN KOSKINEN : Stan Koskinen . And
17 I would like to ask this gentleman if he has
18 ' anything invested in the Town of Ulysses ?
19
GEORGE FRANTZ : Do I have anything
20 invested in the Town ?
21 STAN KOSKINEN : Do you own real
22 estate ?
23 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I do not .
24 '
' STAN KOSKINEN : And you ' re planning
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{
1 for the rest of us - -
2 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I am not .
3 STAN KOSKINEN : - - that do ?
4 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I am not
5 planning .
6 STAN KOSKINEN : You ' re stating the
7 I fact - -
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' m advising the
9 Town of - -
10 1 STAN KOSKINEN : Oh , okay .
11 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I have produced a
12 j document for the Town Board ' s consideration
13 under the Town Board ' s guidance .
14 I STAN KOSKINEN : Most of us people
15 live here and we have some investments in
16 i real estate .
I
17 1 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : And we have
i
18 1 conflicted interests too .
I
19 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well -
I
20 i BOARD MEMBER TYLER : He doesn ' t .
21 I STAN KOSKINEN : That ' s all I got to
22 say .
23 1 SANDY KLINE : Sandy Kline . I had a
24
question . When you said you were drawing up
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I
1 the site plan you went according to the tax
2 j maps , so in other words you took anybody
3 that had an acre or two went into
4 Residential , anybody that owned more than 10
5 i acres or so was automatically Agricultural ?
6 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
8 SANDY KLINE : Because that ' s the way
9 it ' s appearing is like now you ' re saying all
10 i Agricultural you got to have a minimum of
11 1 three acres or four acres . So , when you
410 12 based the Agriculture even though we don ' t
13 i have a farm and we ' re Agriculture all around
14 1 us is Residential , but because we have over
15 a certain amount of acres we ' re
16 I automatically Agricultural .
17 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
18 SANDY KLINE : Because that ' s the way
19 ! it ' s appearing on your map . You ' re saying
20 is you took each parcel - -
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s your
22 ; interpretation .
23 SANDY KLINE : Yes . Okay . But you
24 j said you took each parcel when you were
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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411 Public Informational Meeting 50
1 keeping the maps and you took the tax map to
2 figure out the size and the shape to know
1
3 how to figure it in . So , you ' re kind of
4 1 pinpointing to people that have over 10
5 acres are automatically Agricultural .
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Wrong , okay . Wrong .
7 I There ' s a ton of properties all through
I
8 here , all through here , that are more than
9 10 acres in size , okay ( indicating ) ? To
10 determine the boundaries of this
11 Agricultural lands the basic principles were
12 the land is Agriculture whether you ' re
13 farming it or somebody else is . Another
14 � issue is the euality of the soils on the
15 property . And another thing that I looked
16 at was something called contiguity , i . e .
17 it ' s connected to other Agricultural land .
i
18 i And then finally is it lands that at some
19 point in the future would be needed for
20 t possible development or to accommodate
21 future Residential growth in the Town of
22 Ulysses ? It was those four or five things
23 , that I used .
24 And there ' s a lot of Agricultural
l
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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411 Public Informational Meeting 51
1 ; land in the Town of Ulysses that is not in
2 that category .
3 And I think is the aerial image still
4 I up in Town Hall ?
5 . SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
6 f GEORGE FRANTZ : You can go take a
7 look at that aerial image .
J
8 DAVE KLINE : I ' ve got one last
9 1111 before we leave . Seeing I don ' t buy the
i
10 Ithaca Journal do you know when the next
11 I meeting is ? If not , Marsha , would you call
12 me ?
13 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : ( Shakes head )
14 DAVE KLINE : Now you ' re telling me
15 you can ' t do that ?
E
16 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : David , that ' s
17 1 like discrimination . Not that if you call
18 I me I can ' t tell vou , but I can ' t single out .
i
Z9 DAVE KLIN 'F : Can I call you ?
20 i TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : Yes , you can .
21
DAVE KLINE : Okay . Thank you .
22 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But that ' s why
23 I we can ' t send things . If one person gets
24 1 it , the other , it ' s discrimination .
I
f
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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Public Informational Meeting 52
1 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sad to say but
2 { that ' s life .
3 DAVE KLINE : You ' ll get a phone call
4 from me .
5 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Fine . That ' s
6 good .
7 i TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : There ' s none
i
S I scheduled at this time .
9 ! DAVE KLINE : Okay .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We are
11 considering having another one . We ' re not
12 sure . We ' re certainly going to have a
i
13 public hearing when we get down to where we
14 think we have it done so there will be at
15 least one more meeting , but we may have
16 i another one of these informal type things in
17 between the time .
18 ; DAVE KLINE : How many did you say
I
19 landowners were so I can write that down ?
20 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How many what ?
I
21 ' TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : There ' s
22 approximately 3 , 000 tax parcels .
23 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : There ' s a pretty
24
important informational meeting coming up
i
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
1
Public Informational Meeting 53
1 ! with someone from Ag & Markets , right ?
2 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Yes .
3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : That might be of
4 interest to you because that kind of input
5 and your input is what we ' re looking at
6 coming right up .
7 ; CHAIRMAN COOGAN : The 17th at
8
7 : 00 PM .
9 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Yeah , thank you .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Town Hall .
11 ; CHAIRMAN COOGAN : And that ' s going
12 to be at Town Hall . There ' s also one at the
13 i Cooperative Extension with Ron Meade from Ag
14 & Markets and that ' s going to start at 11 : 30
15 and that ' s on Ag land
g protection . Yeah ,
16 , he ' s going to be down there and then he ' s
17 going to come up to you because he ' s
v
18 addressed the particular concerns in there .
19 ( COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Is the Planning
20 Board having additional meetings on the
21 subject ?
22 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Not Planning .
23 j JOHN WERTIS : George , how does the
24 Al District correlate with the Ag District ,
I
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 54
1 the State Ag District ? Is it easy to show
2 us that or not ?
GEORGE FRANTZ : Actually we - - we ' ve
4 4 got a map of the Ag District and the Ag
5 � District actually covers a lot more land .
F
6 Much of the Town in fact is in the Ag
7 District , including the Rural Residential
8 and some of the land proposed for the
9 Moderate Density Residential .
10 JOHN WERTIS : So , you could have a
11 farmer in the Rural Residential ?
12 { GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
13
SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Agriculture
14 is - - is allowable in any District , so what
15 l that means is if you are in the New York
16 State County Sanctioned Ag District
17 ; regardless of where you are in this District
i
18 ° you ' re still protected by the New York State
19 Ag & Markets Ag District protections .
i
20 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . That ' s -
21 �
again , Agriculture is allowed in R1 Rural
t
22 j Residential and it ' s also - - again , it ' s a
23 I permitted uses in Moderate - - one of the
411 24
permitted uses in the Moderate Density
l
l _
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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1 { Residential District .
2 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I would say that
3 the State Sanctioned Ag District probably
4 � covers 90 percent of the Town of Ulysses .
1
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Any other questions ?
6 ( Whereupon there was no verbal
7 ( response )
8 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : Comments ?
9
( Whereupon there was no verbal
10 response )
411 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s it . If
12 1 you want to this is your last chance .
,
13 ( Whereupon there was no verbal
14 ' response )
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : you .
Okay . Thank
y
16 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded
17 1 at 8 : 28 PM )
18 j * * * * *
19
20
21
22
23
411 24
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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56
1 STATE OF NEW YORK :
2 j COUNTY OF CORTLAND :
3
4
5 I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby
1
6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate
7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a
8 Public Informational Meeting , held in Trumansburg ,
9 New York , on the 4th day of March , 2004 .
10 1
E
11
411 12 i
13
14 - 1 � �---VW
I
15 , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR
i Notary Public
16 1 PDQ Court Reporters
746 Route 41
17 Smithville Flats , NY 13841
( 607 ) 863 - 4911
18
i
19
20
21 1
22 1
23
24
I
I
I
1
March 4, 2004
Dear Town Board and Planning Board :
I have reviewed the draft zoning ordinance, and, in general, am quite pleased to see that it
conforms very closely to the goals and objectives expressed in the comprehensive plan,
which, in turn, were derived from extensive surveying and public input . As one of the
volunteers who worked for years to complete the comprehensive planning process for the
town without incurring the cost of professional planning help, I am very gratified to see
that our work has been respected and built upon. I am also quite pleased that the Town
Board has understood the need to hire competent and qualified planning consultation. I
sincerely hope that, having spent the money to hire an outstanding professional planner, it
will have the wisdom to yield to his disinterested advice concerning the public good,
rather than to small groups of vocal citizens promoting their own financial gain or
personal priorities.
That said, I do have some suggestions for small improvements to what is overall an
excellent document. These are included in a separate section below. I hope that you will
take my suggestions in light of my recent educational accomplishments (I received a
Masters Degree in City and Regional Planning from Cornell University last year, with a
concentration in community and economic development, a GPA of 3 . 8 , and the
Department ' s Community Service award) and my current employment (I have been
employed for the past year as an Agricultural Economic Development Specialist for
Cornell Cooperative Extension of Broome County) . I regret that I can't be here in person
this evening, as my professional responsibilities require me to be teaching a workshop in
Binghamton—interestingly, the topic of that workshop is "First Steps to Farm Marketing :
Which Agricultural Products are Profitable Now?" Citizens of Ulysses have made it
clear that they want the rural atmosphere of the town to be preserved—they want farming
in our future. Ensuring that may mean being attuned to what types of farms will be
successful operations now and in the future, and all signs point to those including some
very different kinds of farms than those that have been successful in the past. This
document, as written, enables and supports the entrepreneurship that will help twenty-
first century agri-preneurs create jobs in our community, while preserving the
irreplaceable natural resource they need to do so : viable farmlands on good soils.
We must be very careful to disentangle the community-wide support for farming with the
inappropriate impulse to support individual farmers with town tax funds. So -called
"sunset farmers," those who do not see their enterprises being continued over a long time
period, or passed down to heirs interested in a farming occupation, have the most to gain
personally by planting a "last crop" of housing—as densely and profitably as possible.
While this is to their personal advantage, and represents their most lucrative retirement
option, it does not represent the public good, and it prices new farmers right out of the
market. A town that truly wants farming in its future must take steps, such as the
proposed agricultural zoning, to stop or slow the conversion of farmland to suburban
housing. This is a quality-of-life benefit, due to positive effects of living in a rural
atmosphere, but it is also a financial benefit to the town. New residential housing growth
puts upward pressures on taxes, as numerous new residents demand increased services
from both town government and school districts. Dense development, in particular,
attracts residents who prefer a more urban or suburban level or services, which may be
very expensive to provide in the parts of the town now in agricultural production.
Please do not succumb to the fiction that existing farmers "need" to be able to profit from
real estate speculation in order to keep farming. It is surely true that staying profitable in
an agricultural business in 2004 is challenging, and many fail. However, Ulysses is
ideally geographically situated to capitalize on some of the more successful models of
profitable agricultural enterprise springing up on the urban fringe throughout the
Northeast . Direct marketing, viticulture, value-added enterprises, organic and natural
produce, nutriceuticals, and agri-tourism all represent growth areas in agriculture. And
all these and more can be a means of continuing viable agriculture in our community
without cashing in on the capital resource, farmland . We should look to support farmers
who want to grow farm enterprises, not those who want to cash out . No individual, of
course, should be required to adopt a new approach to farming just because the old one is
no longer profitable; for those not interested in adopting more profitable farming
enterprises, I highly recommend a mid-life educational experience as a way to transition
to new employment—it certainly worked for me, when I found that market conditions
made it unprofitable for me to continue my small business. These are personal decisions
that are supported by our education and workforce training programs, funded at the state
and federal level, however, not issues appropriately engaged at the local level.
Specific Comments on Document
In article 1 , second paragraph, I suggest adding the word "forests," as " . . . sweeping vistas
of farmland, forests, hills and Cayuga Lake . . . "
In part 2 . 14, I note that the subdivision ordinance is not superseded, and, indeed a new
subdivision ordinance is not a part of this document . It should be—our existing
ordinance is not adequate. I hope that Mr. Franz will be encouraged to draw up a draft
subdivision ordinance in short order after the passage of this zoning ordinance. I will
comment more extensively on that issue at that time .
In part 4 . 1 , I would suggest adding the words "new and, " as " . . . the new and continued
economic and operational viability of agricultural enterprises. " We do not want to send a
message to aspiring agri-preneurs that their investments and their energy are unwelcome,
or that we are only interested in preserving hereditary farming enterprises. New farming
enterprises may not be simple "continuations" of current or past practices.
Regarding part 4 . 7 .2 : as a rural resident with an interest in stewarding a fairly large
acreage at my home (24 acres), I can understand the reasoning of individuals who desire
lots in excess of the maximum lot depth here stipulated . I would point out that there is no
prohibition on selling an individual homeowner an adjacent parcel of farmland, if they
are interested in growing crops or trees as a part-time income source, or establishing a
S
buffer between themselves and neighbors which can be leased to a farmer. Maintaining
these parcels as separate tax parcels prevents problems that may develop when the rural
residence is later sold to an individual not interested in such stewardship—the residence-
sized lot goes with the house, while the ag land is sold separately to an individual
interested in agricultural stewardship . No change here is necessary or warranted.
In keeping with the tremendous potential of the Town of Ulysses for the development of
agri-tourism and nature/recreation tourism, I suggest that part 6 . 3 include the
development of campgrounds by special permit . Particularly in light of the future
development of the the Black Diamond Trail, this could result in economic development
opportunities that could be kept compatible with rural residential use, if done with
sensitivity.
Regarding the grandfathering of Moore ' s Outboard Motors in my "backyard" : we would
appreciate it if the evergreen border stipulated for the South border of this property
(where no one lives) were also to be added to the North boundary, where stored boats are
an unwelcome intrusion on our view, and that of our next-door neighbors. We sincerely
hope that the stipulations on boat storage are enforced , as well, as we feel that the large
number of boats currently stored represent a significant fire hazard to our neighborhood
in an area that is not easily accessible to firefighters. The one fire that did result from the
industrial use there was, frankly, quite frightening.
ie, , / '
d
/ , 3
9 )4AV
1
1 STATE OF NEW YORK
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING
4
5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE
6
7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ;
9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
10 Held at the Francis Racker Center , Wilkins Road ,
it Trumansburg , New York , on the 4th day of March ,
12 2004 , commencing at 7 : 30 PM .
13
REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS
14 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR
Notary Public
15 746 Route 41
Smithville Flats , New York 13841
16 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911
17 APPEARANCES :
TOWN BOARD :
18 Supervisor Douglas Austic
Councilwoman Roxanne Marino
19 Councilman Don Ellis
Councilman Lee Scott
20 Councilman Robert Weatherby
Town Clerk Marsha Georgia
21
Code Enforcement Officer Alex Rachun
22
PLANNING BOARD :
23 Chairman Richard Coogan
Board Member David Tyler
24 Board Member Rodney Porter
Public Informational Meeting 2
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' d like to
2 welcome you all here tonight to another one
3 of the meetings to discuss the proposed
4 Zoning Ordinance . How we ' re going to do
5 this is if anybody wants to speak to be sure
6 that we give your name to our stenographer
7 so she knows whose making comments when she
8 gets to complete the minutes .
9 So , the way we ' ll start out is
10 Mr . Frantz will explain the first - - or the
11 draft of the Zoning Ordinance they ' re
12 working on now and from there we ' ll take
13 comments on what people think about the
14 draft . So , he will - - he ' s not going to go
15 through the whole Ordinance . He ' s going to
16 explain the principles on which it ' s based
17 and the different zones that are
18 established .
19 So , you can hardly talk but we ' ll
20 make it .
21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We can make a
22 point there ' s a summary handout of what
23 you ' re saying over there , George , if anybody
24 missed it ( indicating ) .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 3
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : If anything the fact
2 that my voice is going I ' m just going to
3 condense my presentation .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If he keels over
5 we ' ll get him off the floor so - -
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - continue on .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : To begin with , the
9 whole point , you know , this exercise is to
10 update the Town Zoning Ordinance , make it in
11 some cases more flexible but also more
12 specific and easier to manage , and also to
13 help better control the development that we
14 see coming with the arrival of the water in
15 Jacksonville .
16 A couple of things first , there ' s
17 three major components of the Zoning
18 Ordinance . One is the definition section ,
19 and a well written definition section that
20 defines any term that is not used in day - to -
21 day language is very important in a Zoning
22 Ordinance . And unfortunately it ' s one of
23 those things that a lot of communities sort
24 of glossed over or in some cases they devote
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 4
1 the time to finding words that you can just
2 go to Webster ' s and look them up .
3 Some of the words that are sort of
4 critical to define in the Zoning Ordinance
5 include something like building height , you
6 know , what does the Town mean when it says
7 structure shall be no more than 36 feet ?
8 There ' s a dozen ways that can actually be
9 defined . So , the point is actually pinpoint
10 that definition . What ' s a professional
11 office ? Actually what ' s a hospital ? What ' s
12 a - - versus a clinic ? Because there are
13 Zoning - - there are areas of the Town where
14 clinic would be an appropriate land use but
15 you certainly don ' t want a major medical
16 center . Sit - down restaurants versus
17 fast - food restaurants is another one . If
18 you want to again have better definition in
19 your Zoning terms .
20 Right now the Town has two Zoning
21 Districts and what we ' ve come up with is a
22 total of now up to eleven , is that right ?
23 These are it . They ' ve been fluctuating .
24 The largest District is the Al
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 5
1 Agricultural Zoning District . It ' s the
2 yellow on the two maps ( indicating ) . And
3 the Al District is designed to protect
4 agriculture from too intense of
5 nonagricultural development , primarily
6 Residential development . But also , unlike
7 many Zoning Ordinances , the proposed Zoning
8 for Agriculture in the Town of Ithaca - -
9 excuse me , Town of Ulysses allows what we ' re
10 calling Agricultural Commerce or
11 agricultural - related enterprises . Those
12 types of businesses that many - - in fact I
13 would say most farms may have as a
14 supplementary income source , okay ?
15 Today in this region especially , but
16 I think throughout agriculture in America ,
17 there ' s very , very few farms left that can
18 make it alone on the income generated by the
19 farming operations , okay ? A spouse may have
20 a full - time or part - time job off the farm to
21 supplement the income or the farm owners may
22 have a side business that they operate on
23 the farm that is used to supplement the farm
24 income . And unfortunately a lot of Zoning
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
1
Public Informational Meeting 6
1 Ordinances really don ' t provide for that and
2 what we ' re trying to do here is provide for
3 that type of business , make it a legal land
4 use in the Town of Ulysses , okay ?
5 There ' s this A2 Special Agricultural
6 District . It ' s the Trumansburg Fairgrounds .
7 And the reason we ' ve done that is the
8 ' fairgrounds are pretty unique and there ' s a
9 unique set of activities that happen on the
10 Trumansburg Fairgrounds that are appropriate
11 for that location but not necessarily
12 anywhere else in the Town . So , we ' ve sort
13 of set up a special District that will allow
14 the fair that will be a legal land use
15 within the Town of Ulysses but at the same
16 time keep those activities in that one
17 location .
18 Next the orange is known as a Rural
19 Residential District . It has a minimum lot
20 size of two acres and the idea is to permit
21 Residential development in those areas but
22 at a fairly low density . Again , of one - -
23 one dwelling every two acres , okay ?
24 The red down here southeastern corner
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 7
1 along 96 and then around the Village is the
2 Moderate Density Residential District
3 ( indicating ) . And these are areas which
4 either will be served by or are served by
5 public water but also are served or may have
6 the potential to be served at some point in
7 the future by public sewer . And so the
8 minimum lot sizes in the Moderate Density
9 areas falls down to 32 , 000 square feet or
10 roughly three - quarters - of - an - acre , okay ?
11 One of the ideas here is to channel the
12 major Residential development of the future
13 in and around the Village of Trumansburg and
14 then down here in the southeast corner of
15 the Town along the border with the Town of
16 Ithaca .
17 And , by the way , the Zoning in the
18 Town of Ithaca across the line is R30 , which
19 is actually minimum lot size of 30 , 000
20 square feet , okay ? So , it ' s sort of pretty
21 much the same sort of density as what ' s
22 across the border in the Town of Ithaca .
23 Another of the Residential Districts
24 is the Multiple Residence District , and that
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 8
1 will allow multi family - development in the
2 Town , apartment developments , and right now
3 we ' re proposing two such Districts . There ' s
4 one that takes in the small True Haven
5 Apartments there on - - off to the side of
6 Route 96 just before the Town of Ithaca
7 line . There ' s a small apartment complex
8 there . And we ' ve also designated the - - in
9 Jacksonville proper the old - - old motel
10 site just south of Ulysses Square which is
11 now essentially rental property . And the
12 reason for that is hopefully we can possibly
13 get somebody to invest in redeveloping that
14 site for hopefully higher - quality housing .
15 Mobile Home Park District , again we
1 16 have two mobile home parks in the Town , up
17 here off Seneca Road and then down next to
18 the former Lakes Drive - Inn Theater , and so
19 we ' ve got a Zoning District to continue to
20 permit those two mobile home parks ,
21 manufactured housing parks ( indicating ) .
22 And also if somebody wants to establish
23 another such development in the Town they
24 would have to come to the Town Board and
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 9
1 request the rezoning and meet the standards
2 that are laid out in the back of the Zoning
3 Ordinance , okay ?
4 The dark purple here , Jacksonville ,
5 and over here at Waterburg , these are the
6 Hamlet Zoning Districts , the Hamlet
7 Districts , and they ' re designed to allow
8 more dense compact development in
9 Jacksonville and in Waterburg , okay
10 ( indicating ) ? And there the lot size can be
11 as low as 6 , 000 square feet , okay ? Again ,
12 provided there ' s public water and either
13 public sewer or some sort of privately - owned
14 Health Department monitored sewage system .
15 You ' re not going to get septic on
16 6 , 000 square foot lots so while that ' s a
17 minimum lot size at least in the near future
18 we probably won ' t see that type of
19 development . But what we want to do is at
20 least have - - provide the opportunity for
21 somebody who wants to come in and do that
22 type of development in Jacksonville and
23 possibly in Waterburg .
24 The Hamlet District also allows some
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 10
1 small scale Retail and other type Business
2 development within the District . It ' s sort
3 of what we call a mixed - use type Zoning
4 District in the business .
5 The next District is the B1 , which is
6 the primary Commercial Zoning District being
7 proposed . And the B1 Districts again start
8 up here northwest of the Village . The
9 largest is this area that encompasses from
10 the fairgrounds down to Maguire Chevrolet or
11 just beyond both sides of Route 96
12 ( indicating ) . It allows for some expansion
13 actually eastward behind Seafuses ( phonetic )
14 and Maguire at some point in the future .
15 Bar Angus , around the Stover Lumber Company ,
16 around the LL Hammond Furniture and the auto
17 repair business . This one is Ulysses Square
18 ( indicating ) .
19 Further down the one around the
20 corner of Van Dorn Road ( phonetic ) , Rascals .
21 Further down the one actually bracketing the
22 old Spikes Barbeque Restaurant building .
23 Again both sides of Route 96 because we ' re
24 not just accommodating the existing
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 11
1 businesses that are in the Town but we ' re
2 also providing for opportunities for new
3 businesses to come into the Town and for
4 existing ones to expand , okay ? Continuing
5 down the area on either side of Sleeping
6 Bear Futon along Route 96 is proposed to be
7 a Business zone . And then finally the area
8 between Trump Corners Road and the south
9 side of the - - what is it - - Ithaca - - the
10 Honda place ( indicating ) ?
11 A VOICE : Paradise Cafe .
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , Paradise Cafe
13 is in the middle of that . The motorcycle
14 place also , Business Zones , of course the
15 Glenwood Pines Restaurant , the West Shore
16 Grocery , and then there ' s one where there
17 was the old motel just south of the
18 intersection of 89 and Craft Road , and then
19 land just actually on the opposite side just
20 north of the Cayuga Inn are proposed for
21 Business B1 Zones . And then finally the
22 area around Taughannock Farms Inn , again
23 proposed to be B1 ( indicating ) .
24 The brown here and here , those are
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 12
1 the proposed Light Industrial Districts
2 ( indicating ) . These Zoning Districts are
3 going to allow what ' s been called Light
4 Industry , i . e . it ' s low intensity industry ,
5 essentially the type of manufacturing
6 enterprises that bring components into the
7 site and assemble something from those
8 components . They don ' t actually bring in
9 raw materials to manufacture items , rather
10 it ' s more bringing components in using
11 electric motors as really the main power
12 source to manufacture or do final assembly
13 for products . In addition it also allows
14 research and development - type businesses and
15 conference centers in this - - in these
16 proposed Light Industrial Districts .
17 And then finally the dark green is a
18 Park and Recreation Zoning District
19 ( indicating ) . It ' s primarily a Residential
20 District with few restrictions to sort of
21 recognize the fact that it encompasses some
22 fairly environmentally sensitive or at least
23 scenicly important areas or again the Nature
24 Center , Cayuga Nature Center .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 13
1 Now , within all the Districts we ' re
2 going to have something called permitted
3 uses and under permitted uses these are
4 items that are permitted by right . You go
5 in , you get your Building Permit , and you do
6 whatever you want to do within that category
7 of land uses , okay ?
8 Then some uses will require Site Plan
9 Approval . And those are primarily in the
10 Business and the more Commercial and
11 Industrial type uses would require Site Plan
12 Approval . And what Site Plan Approval is ,
13 it ' s a Planning Board review and approval of
14 the developer ' s plans . The key thing is is
15 that generally in a Site Plan Approval if
16 the plans meet the requirements of the
17 Zoning Ordinance , if they meet the
18 requirements outlined in the standards , the
19 design standards for that particular land
20 use , Planning Board has very limited leeway
21 to deny . They can approve , they can approve
22 with conditions , but if the proposed uses
23 comply with the Zoning it ' s only in extreme
24 circumstances where a site plan could be
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 14
1 denied and be upheld by the courts .
2 Then finally the third type of use ,
3 the more intensive uses , are things that are
4 allowed by Special Permit , and Special
5 Permit is a little more in - depth review than
6 Site Plan Approval applies for . And in some
7 cases the Town could deny a Special Permit
8 if it were to find that that particular land
9 use or whatever that particular proposal
10 happens to be is just not appropriate for
11 that particular site , okay ?
12 But the thing about Special Permit is
13 that the onus is on the Town to make the
14 case that that particular proposal ' s not a
15 good idea in X location , okay ? The - - it ' s
16 the Town has - - the burden of proof is on
17 the Town , not the applicant , okay ? So , the
18 uses are permitted , they ' re just subject to
19 this extra level of review , okay ?
20 Mentioned before , one of the
21 important things , the design and operating
22 standards is another feature of this Zoning
23 Ordinance that has been added , and
24 essentially what they are are basic criteria
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 15
1 that the applicants have to meet before they
2 can get their development proposed . And it
3 can be criteria like a buffer area between
4 Commercial and Residential Districts .
5 There ' s specific lighting standards for all
6 development in the Town . In the case of
7 let ' s say , something like Multiple
8 Residence , an apartment complex , there ' s
9 very specific standards that say , for
10 instance , there ' s a minimum setback of 25 or
11 so feet from anything within the development
12 and the side yard line or the rear yard
13 line . There ' s minimum requirements for
14 parking , minimum requirements for the
15 driveways and everything . Maximum height
16 restrictions on the buildings , maximum - - or
17 actually minimum set for the amount of open
18 space or lawn areas that would be required
19 in these types of developments . So , you
20 don ' t get people packing , you know , a whole
21 lot of dwellings onto a very small parcel .
22 Other things , self - service storage
23 facilities , again , allowed but subject to
24 specific standards that include things like
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Public Informational Meeting 16
1 landscaping to maybe visually screen them a
2 little more from the public road and from
3 adjoining properties . Saw mills , things
4 like noise and the like we tried to deal
5 with . Campgrounds , again some standards for
6 them .
7 And I think again that ' s , you know ,
8 sort of the general outline . I ' m not going
9 to go into a District by District
10 description because it could put us all
11 asleep , but I think what I ' ll do is just I ' m
12 going to stop speaking now and just we ' ll
13 open the floor to questions , because I think
14 that ' s going to be the most efficient
15 approach here . If people have specific
16 questions I can answer them for you .
17 So , unless you have anything to
18 say . . .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s fine .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Any
21 questions ?
22 JOHN WERTIS : Yeah , I ' m interested
23 in the definition - - you don ' t need my name
24 for this , do you ?
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Public Informational Meeting 17
1 COURT REPORTER : Yes .
2 JOHN WERTIS : John Wertis , Searsburg
3 Road , W - E - R - T , as in Tom , I: - S , as in Sam .
4 The definition of farm - -
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
6 JOHN WERTIS : - - on page 9 - -
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Mm - hm .
8 JOHN WERTIS : - - in the big pack - -
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , go ahead , I ' m
10 listening .
11 JOHN WERTIS : - - well , I understand
12 the first part , " land of not less than 10
13 acres , $ 10 , 000 gross " sort of fits with the
14 Ag District regs - -
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Mm - hm
16 JOHN WERTIS : - - but I don ' t
17 understand the second part , " or less land
18 but $ 20 , 000 gross . "
19 Is that also - - where did that come
20 from ? Just curious .
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The idea of
22 the what , the land less than 10 acres ?
23 JOHN WERTIS : Yeah , that ' s the part
24 I don ' t understand .
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Public Informational Meeting 18
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : I guess we didn ' t
2 want people on parcels of 10 acres to have a
3 little symbolic garden or whatever and then
4 attempt to call them a farm - - call
5 themselves a farm and then begin some of the
6 stuff like the cottage industries or
7 Agricultural Commerce that ' s also allowed
8 within the Ag District .
9 But having said that let me also say
10 this : That Ag & Markets has suggested that
11 we drop this and I - - I think we will and
12 really just go with their definition .
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , I think
14 this definition here basically came from the
15 definition that the assessment - - Department
16 of Assessment was using for farmland
17 reduction in assessments so this is not what
18 Ag & - - Ag & Markets calls a farming
19 operation so we ' re probably going to change
20 that to more relate to what Ag & Markets
21 says is a farm . They understood what the
22 definition , where it came from , but they
23 didn ' t really like it , so . . .
24 JOHN WERTIS : Okay . I ' m still not
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 19
1 understanding the funny business about a
2 smaller acreage and a bigger amount of
3 money .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way
5 the assessment - -
6 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : They ' re looking
7 towards greenhouses and things like this .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That could be a
9 couple of acres and have a large income and
10 then you have other people that have to have
11 the larger acreage to make the same amount
12 of income , that ' s the way the Assessment
13 Bureau works , but we ' re probably going to
14 relook at that and make it more reasonable ,
15 simplify it . Does that answer your - -
16 probably not .
17 JOHN WERTIS : Probably not .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s - - but again ,
20 John , it ' s definitely , you know , up for
21 revision , so . . .
22 JOHN WERTIS : I hear that . That ' s
23 good .
24 I still get a little confused in your
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Public Informational Meeting 20
1 Al Agriculture District in exactly
2 understanding what an Agricultural lot is .
3 It ' s not defined in the - - it ' s sort of
4 defined in the body of the Al stuff on page
5 20 . It ' s not in the definitions . Is
6 an Agricultural lot my house and barns ? Is
7 it - -
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : A farmstead .
9 JOHN WERTIS : - - or the whole
10 farmstead ?
11 If it ' s 300 acres that ' s the
12 Agricultural lot ?
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : If it ' s one parcel ,
14 yeah .
15 JOHN WERTIS : If it ' s one parcel .
16 GEORGE FRANTZ : But , you know , if
17 it ' s a smaller parcel that happens to be
18 maybe , you know , five acres or so but it has
19 a farmhouse and a barn complex , an operating
20 barn complex and stuff , that ' s obviously
21 Agricultural , so - - but I think too that ' s
22 another thing that we ' re looking at , this
23 concept of having Agricultural lot .
24 JOHN WERTIS : It certainly is
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 21
1 confusing .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Hm - mm ?
3 JOHN WERTIS : It certainly is
4 confusing I think for the average - - average
5 me reader .
6 RICHARD BERGREN : Richard Bergren .
7 And I have a lot on Trumansburg Road . A
8 long time , years ago , from the bank we
9 understand it was Business and Residential .
10 Now I ' ve got quite a bit invested , I ' ve
11 never requested a Agricultural Zoning onto
12 it , which would have been - - reduced the
13 taxes . I don ' t like the idea of it being
14 changed to Agricultural now after 10 years
15 of paying taxes that has a Business they
16 zoned proper . I don ' t believe that ' s
17 proper .
18 And I have mentioned that at one of
19 our other comprehensive meetings . It
20 involved these number of years no business
21 has been there , but as the Town knows I have
22 made many applications . I turned down
23 Wal - Marts up there because it was opposition
24 to it . They agreed to extend water up there
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 22
1 and some of the neighbors don ' t like it so I
2 withdrew that offer from - - to Wal - Mart but
3 I ' ve never given up the idea of buying it
4 for a business . And as I say , I ' ve got a
5 lot of money invested in it and not only the
6 proper property but also in taxes over the
7 years . That ' s about it .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
9 DAVE KLINE : Dave Kline . This is
10 directed to Doug . Can you tell me what the
11 minimum lot size is for the Town of Lansing ?
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anywhere ?
13 DAVE KLINE : In the Village ,
14 anyplace . I know you know the answer
15 because I ' ve heard it from you .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Jeez . Well , I ' m
17 assuming that in the Village of Lansing
18 there - -
19 DAVE KLINE : The Village or Town , I
20 don ' t care .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Okay . In the
22 Village or the Town and some of their
23 Residential Districts it ' s probably pretty
24 small because they have water , sewer . I
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 23
1 think it ' s 30 - - 32 to 35 , 000 feet where
2 there ' s water and sewer . Out in the Ag , you
3 know , where there is maybe water and not
4 sewer or where there ' s neither one the lots
5 are similar in size to the two - acre lot that
6 is required here basically because - -
7 DAVE KLINE : I disagree with that .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
9 DAVE KLINE : I disagree with that .
10 In looking through the building developments
11 on East Shore Drive - -
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , that ' s in
13 the other Districts . That ' s where they have
14 water or sewer .
15 DAVE KLINE : No , they don ' t have
16 water down there on East Shore Drive where
17 I ' m talking .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
19 Well , maybe I ' m wrong . Yep , I think they
20 do .
21 DAVE KLINE : Oh , do they ?
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , but it ' s
23 similar because what ' s regulating that is
X24 actually what the Health Department will
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Public Informational Meeting 24
1 approve to put in your septic system with
2 the well on the lot , so it ' s basically
3 between one - and - three - quarters , two acres .
4 DAVE KLINE : What ' s our Health
5 Department require in Ulysses ?
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing .
7 DAVE KLINE : Not five acres ?
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
9 DAVE KLINE : Okay .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Between
11 one - and - a - half to - - depends on the shape of
12 the lot and how they can get this 150 - to
13 200 - foot circle in there , so somewhere
14 between one - and - three - quarters and two
15 acres . Somewhere in Lansing you ' ll find
16 that in places that are not serviced by
17 water and sewer are similar . They may have
18 less frontage but the acreage is about the
19 same .
20 DAVE KLINE : You guys all know this ,
21 you ' re telling us that farmers aren ' t going
22 to pass their farms onto the next
23 generation , there ' s not going to be no
24 farmers , why do you want so much
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Public Informational Meeting 25
1 Agricultural if there ' s not going to be any
2 farmers ?
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Who are you
4 asking that ?
5 DAVE KLINE : All of you .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I ' m sorry , did
7 you say that we ' re saying that farmers
8 aren ' t going to - -
9 DAVE KLINE : He just said , and it ' s
10 been said in here in all meetings , that
11 farms are going down the hill , they ' re not
12 going to be passed on , young people aren ' t
13 going to go into farming .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : You ' ve never heard
15 that from me .
16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I ' ve had
17 farmers say that to me .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Did you say
19 that ?
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , never .
21 DAVE KLINE : No , Stanley .
22 STANLEY KOSKINEN : There ' s nobody to
23 take my empire over and I started it and
24 there ' s only two or three full - time farmers
Public Informational Meeting 26
1 in the Town of Ulysses period and after that
2 there isn ' t going to be any .
3 DAVE KLINE : This was brought up at
4 the last meeting from that gentleman right
5 there ( indicating ) .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I don ' t
7 think anybody ' s trying to say that - - that
8 it won ' t be - - somebody will be farming and
9 the idea is if that ' s going to be true you
10 have to have something , you have to have
11 some land for them to use . So , the idea of
12 this is to try to save the farmland . Maybe
13 not the farmer himself but the land .
14 DAVE KLINE : You shouldn ' t be in the
15 position to tell me I ' ve got to save my
16 land - -
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
18 DAVE KLINE : You shouldn ' t be in the
19 position to tell me that I have to save my
20 land for some potential farmer .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : ]: don ' t think
22 we ' re telling you - - we ' re not telling you
23 that .
24 DAVE KLINE : Well , okay .
Public Informational Meeting 27
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have the
2 right to sell Residential lots on your
3 property .
4 SANDY KLINE : But we ' re not
5 Residential .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You still have
7 the right to sell .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : The Al Agricultural
9 District allows Residential development .
10 SANDY KLINE : But a minimum how many
11 acres ?
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s not
13 really settled yet .
14 SANDY KLINE : But according to your
15 Zoning you ' re saying - -
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Three acres .
17 SANDY KLINE : - - five .
18 DAVE KLINE : I got two things on
19 that and they still won ' t give me an answer
20 which things truly - -
21 SANDY KLINE : You ' ve changed it
22 since we got the last one ?
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Huh ?
24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , this
Public Informational Meeting 28
1 hasn ' t been changed since the beginning of
2 January , this document ( indicating ) .
3 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ?
4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : This document
5 hasn ' t been changed since the beginning of
6 January when we started getting - -
7 SANDY KLINE : The document so many
8 feet of road frontage ?
9 DAVE KLINE : I ' ve got two documents
10 in this development that I talked to you
11 last meeting , one - - one was 500 feet , one
12 was 250 - - or I ' ll show you .
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think the
14 one - -
15 DAVE KLINE : I never got an answer
16 which one was right .
17 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Yeah , the most
18 current one , I think it ' s dated January 5th ,
19 2004 .
20 DAVE KLINE : You think . Which one ' s
21 the most current ?
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The one you
23 should have says 500 .
24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : January 5th ,
Public Informational Meeting 29
1 2004 .
2 SANDY KLINE : So , if you have a
3 property with 1 , 000 feet of road frontage
4 but it goes back 5 , 000 feet you ' re saying
5 then the minimum - -
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not saying
7 anything .
8 SANDY KLINE : - - we sell 500 feet we
9 got to sell it all the way back ?
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not saying
11 that .
12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No .
13 SANDY KLINE : How are you going to
14 sell the land in the back then if you don ' t
15 have the road frontage ?
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You can ' t . The
17 whole thing is we can ' t - - we ' ve been
18 working on this Zoning Ordinance for two or
19 three years . We ' ve come to the point where
20 the major contention today is probably the
21 Ag District . There ' s the most comments from
22 the Planning Board and the Town Board as to
23 this is the argument , so we ' re out here now
24 to - - trying to find out what the comments
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting
30
1 are as to the last proposal that was
2 submitted which includes the 500 feet , I ' m
3 not sure how many acres are , three acres ?
4 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Three .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , that ' s what
6 we ' re here to get comments on . We ' re not
7 saying that ' s what ' s going to end up as ,
8 we ' re not saying anything , we just need to
9 know what people think about that proposal
10 in the Ag District .
11 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : To go back to
12 your comment though , the face of farming is
13 changing , that ' s true . That ' s an evident
14 fact and that ' s one of the things that we ' re
15 struggling with .
16 JOHN WERTIS : So , relative to those
17
. back lots they just mentioned , could that be
r•
18 developed as a Residential through some sort
19 of planned development ?
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right , through a
21 subdivision or cluster subdivision or
22 something where you could go back off the
23 road , not - - the road frontage then could be
24 smaller because you ' re just building the
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 31
> 1 road and you could go back and develop it as
2 a cluster subdivision which would probably
3 be the best way to do to save road frontage
4 and reduce the - - the number of driveways .
5 However , most of the development in the Town
6 of Ulysses is individual homes so in order
7 to get that system to work and to encourage
8 somebody to do that for the benefit that it
9 would give you ' d have to have somebody who
10 is probably interested in building three or
11 four or several homes . So , that ' s the
12 dilemma . That ' s the better idea but how to
13 encourage it .
14 JUDITH REESE : I have a kind of
15 different concern . Judith Reese . I ' m kind
16 of curious as to how you decided to bring
17 the area of the Hamlet so far in this
18 direction of Jacksonville Road . Right now
19 it ' s , you know , it ' s pretty much close to
20 down in here ( indicating ) . How was that
21 decision made ?
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : It - - actually the
23 homes in Jacksonville actually extend south
24 to about this point already ( indicating ) .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 32
1 JUDITH REESE : On 96 but not on
2 Jacksonville Road .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , Jacksonville
4 Road they ' re fairly close to either section
5 of the teal , and so the idea is that there ' s
6 several parcels here , not large parcels but
7 parcels , that when you have the Hamlet type
8 density somebody could go in and do some
9 small - scale Residential development there .
10 JUDITH REESE : But I ' m not sure that
11 answers my question .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : As a matter of
13 maybe clarification , there was a meeting in
14 Jacksonville sometime last summer , right ,
15 and it was the Jacksonville Community
16 Association and they got together with
17 George and the idea was to set up where ' s
18 the Hamlet of Jacksonville ? And from that
19 discussion that ' s what developed .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : And it ' s also
21 actually again this line here , this big
22 property house , okay ? You know , rather than
23 chopping parcels of land up .
24 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : I can - - I think
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 33
1 the easy way to explain it : When you look
2 at the Community Association , what we
3 thought would be walked around . We went
4 from Coles Road to Cold Springs Road and we
5 sort of looked at it as an oval shape so
6 that it would be anything that could be
7 walked . When George put it on the map what
8 he did was follow property lines and one of
9 the oddities that came up was Golden ' s
10 property because their property abutted the
11 houses close by Jacksonville but when you
12 took that property it immediately expanded
13 the Hamlet District to look much bigger than
14 we sort of talked about in the meeting . And
15 it was the difference between drawing that
16 oval on a map and then following the
17 contours of the property .
18 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s roughly ,
19 you know , 2 , 500 feet from the main
20 intersection of Jacksonville Road and
21 Route - - Trumansburg Road to the outer edges
22 of the Hamlet Zoning District , that ' s
23 roughly half - a - mile , roughly the distance
24 people are comfortable walking . And then ,
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PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 34
1 yeah , as Dick said , the - - then property
2 lines came into play and that ' s why we have
3 this particular shape .
4 DAVE KLINE : Me again . As before ,
5 we didn ' t know about this meeting . We don ' t
6 get the Ithaca Journal . Someone called us
7 and told us .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It was on the
9 radio four or five times today .
10 DAVE KLINE : I work all day , I ' m
11 sorry .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know .
13 DAVE KLINE : But I ' d like to see - -
14 we need to get more people to the meetings .
15 Marsha can probably tell me how many
16 landowners are in the Town of Ulysses . You
17 got an idea ?
18 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : Well , there ' s
19 almost 3 , 000 parcels .
20 DAVE KLINE : So , what would it cost
21 to mail a flyer to everybody ?
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s legal
23 requirements that we can ' t do that .
24 DAVE KLINE : Why is that ?
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 35
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Because if
2 someone were to not get the card for some
3 unknown reason then we failed to notify
4 these people .
5 DAVE KLINE : Well , let me ask you
6 this - -
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You all have the
8 right to listen to the radio , to read the
9 paper or whatever , so if you miss it you
10 miss it . But if we didn ' t notify an
11 individual person that we had a meeting then
12 there may be some legal repercussions later
13 on , so we can ' t really do that . We can ' t
14 e - mail , we can ' t do any of that kind of
15 stuff , because we have to notify - - have to
16 have - - every person has to have the same
17 right to get that notice .
18 DAVE KLINE : That ' s why I ' m saying
19 if everybody was mailed something they ' d
20 have the same right .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well - -
22 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But addresses
23 aren ' t always right .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Addresses aren ' t .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
III
Public Informational Meeting 36
1 always right and all kinds of stuff . We
2 thought about it . We looked into it . It
3 scares you but that ' s the rule .
4 DAVE KLINE : Well , anyway , if you
5 could do it - -
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If we could do
7 it . . .
8 DAVE KLINE : You ' re saying you
9 can ' t ?
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right .
11 DAVE KLINE : I think a flyer should
12 go to everybody telling them what you ' re
13 doing or trying to do and give them a
14 checklist of the Ag 1 , the Ag 2 , boom , boom ,
15 boom , and if they don ' t come to the meeting
16 that ' s their problem , they ' ve lost . If they
17 come to the meeting let them check what they
18 would like to be . Not guaranteed but it
19 will give you a true opinion of what people
20 want .
21 Because I would not be here tonight
22 unless someone called me because I don ' t get
23 the Ithaca Journal and I don ' t listen to the
24 radio all day .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 37
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , we
2 can ' t - - we can ' t go out and knock on
3 individuals ' door , we can ' t do that .
4 DAVE KLINE : I know you can send me
5 a tax bill and everybody in the County .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , that ' s
7 true , we do that , but we need that , you
8 know . No , I know what you ' re saying but
9 there ' s problems with doing that .
10 DAVE KLINE : I just don ' t think one
11 guy should be able to come in and design - -
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : One guy didn ' t .
13 DAVE KLINE : Well , he designed it ,
14 you guys are voting on it trying to approve
15 it .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , we ' ve been
17 changing it over two years here . Some of
18 the things he put in we kind of completely
19 threw out and some of them are different
20 ideas that we had . All he did was the
21 framework of what we had originally , what
22 was in the comprehensive plan and what he
23 thought worked in other towns , so he ' s not
24 telling us what to do .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 38
1 DAVE KLINE : Well , I know that .
2 He ' s the one that designed it though .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . The
4 original copy which we had public
5 informational meetings on what , two years
6 ago in the spring , that was the real
7 original he came in with . So , that was - -
8 this one I would say is quite a bit
9 different than that one . So , we ' re still
10 defining it and refining it but I think
11 we ' re close and that ' s why .
12 RUSS CARPENTER : Doug , can I make a
13 comment on your size of your lots in the Ag
14 District ? Russ Carpenter , I ' m sorry .
15 You ' re looking at three - acre lot in the Ag
16 District or possibly a 250 to 500 feet road
17 frontage . It was my observation just
18 • looking around Town at the different parcels
19 that are already intact and a majority of
20 the people out there if they have much more
21 than an acre - and - a - half , two acres to
22 maintain it just goes fallow . It becomes
23 scrub land . Personally I don ' t care to see
24 that so that - - in that sort of an issue I
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 39
1 would rather see a little bit smaller lot
2 for the average homeowner , because the
3 average homeowner cannot and will not take
4 care of a three - acre parcel or five - acre
5 parcel or whatever . So , when you get up to
6 your bigger sizes of parcels that ' s going to
7 be more of a problem .
8 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : So , are you
9 saying then that we should say you got a
10 smaller parcel but just own a part of the
11 farm ?
12 RUSS CARPENTER : What I ' m saying is
13 the average person cannot take care of three
14 acres . Are you - - how many acres do you set
15 your house on personally ?
16 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : Well , I mean - -
17 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : He ' s not a
18 good example .
19 RUSS CARPENTER : Well , Rodney , how
20 many acres do you sit on ?
21 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : Five .
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you maintain
23 all that five acres ? Do you mow it all ?
24 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : ( Nods head )
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Public Informational Meeting 40
1 RUSS CARPENTER : How many people
2 around you do that ?
3 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : Nobody .
4 RUSS CARPENTER : Okay , that ' s my
5 point I ' m trying to make .
6 BOARD MEMBER PORTER : I think that
7 we sort of did take that into consideration
8 and that ' s why three acres and not five
9 acres , something like that . Also limiting
10 the depth to - - to not only limit on the
11 road frontage but the depth . And if
12 somebody doesn ' t want three acres , can ' t
13 maintain three acres , there are a lot of
14 places in the Town they can build houses on
15 smaller lots .
16 RUSS CARPENTER : So , that ' s just
17 something for you - -
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your
19 point . We ' ve heard it before so we got
20 that .
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : In actually getting
22 back to the whole issue of , you know ,
23 getting the public notified , sometimes
24 there ' s nothing like Letter to the Editor if
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 41 ,
1 you want people out there .
2 DAVE KLINE : Well , see , I don ' t read
3 the paper , I don ' t get the paper .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we can ' t - -
5 you don ' t listen to the radio , you don ' t
6 read the newspaper , there ' s not much we can
7 do - -
8 DAVE KLINE : You can send me
9 something .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - so . . .
11 A VOICE : That may be a great waste
12 of our tax dollars in this day and age , you
13 know . There ' s a certain amount of
14 responsibility that you have to take for
15 yourself .
16 DAVE KLINE : That ' s why I ' m here .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : We should keep it - -
18 the side discussions because our
19 stenographer is trying to get everything
20 down .
21 Are there any other questions ?
22 Comments ?
23 JANE BOWEN : Jane Bowen , B - O - W - E - N .
24 The Babcock property on 96 , what ' s that
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 42
1 classed as now ? And they ' re going out , what
2 can happen to that ?
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : That right now ,
4 it ' s - - it ' s classed - - it ' s in the Al
5 Agricultural Zoning District because it does
6 qualify as one of those Agricultural - related
7 enterprises . The news of the fact that
8 they ' re moving out has us now thinking
9 differently , you know , because - -
10 JANE BOWEN : Like what ?
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , two
12 possibilities to date have been , you know ,
13 zone the land - - the buildings and the land
14 around them , let ' s say , Light Industrial ,
15 okay , and that would allow similar type
16 businesses , not Agricultural Businesses but
17 low - intensity type Industry or office or
18 research - type businesses to go into that
19 building .
20 A second option , and again we haven ' t
21 even talked about it yet so , you know , we
22 really don ' t know what ' s going to come out
23 of this , but the other option would be for a
24 B1 Business District which would allow
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Public Informational Meeting 43
1 Retail or Commercial development , okay ?
2 So , that ' s my brainstorming at this
3 point but it is an issue that , yeah , we ' ve
4 got to now address on this Zoning matter .
5 JANE BOWEN : Interested in that
6 because my property butts onto theirs .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay .
8 JOHN WERTIS : John Wertis again .
9 I ' m still picking away at your Al District a
10 little bit . In your introduction , as I
11 understood it , you said that when it comes
12 to permitted uses you essentially walk in
13 and you get your Building Permit and you
14 walk out . But in the Al District under
15 permitted uses for Agricultural lots on the
16 back of that page these uses only pertain to
17 Agricultural lots , Agricultural Commerce ,
18 and it says subject to Site Plan Approval ,
19 so it ' s a little different , is it not - -
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Here again - -
21 JOHN WERTIS : - - than just walking
22 in and - -
23 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , what I - - I
24 went through some of these uses without
Public Informational Meeting 44
1 actually saying whether they fell into that
2 permitted , permitted by site plan , or
3 permitted by Special Permit . I was sort of
4 throwing things out . But , yeah , there - -
5 looking through - -
6 JOHN WERTIS : Well , then , and just
7 to continue a little bit in that section , if
8 you skip down to 4 . 5 , uses allowed by site
9 plan , I can ' t quite figure out why those
10 were separated out or why they wouldn ' t fall
11 back under the Agricultural Commerce . I
12 guess airstrip , I can understand that .
III 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Some of those
14 things - -
15
WERTIS : So , those are the ones
16 that don ' t fall under Agricultural Commerce ?
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , things like a
18 cottage industry , for instance - -
19 JOHN WERTIS : Okay .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - it may qualify as
21 Agricultural Commerce but it - - at the same
22 time it could be - - cottage industry can be
23 any number of things including , one example
24 would be right now Flowcack ( phonetic ) , I
Public Informational Meeting
45
1 think we discussed that , although he might
2 be a little too large .
3 See , cottage industries do not have
4 to necessarily be Agricultural in nature .
5 They ' re just something that ' s owned by the
6 owner of the property and it ' s limited in
7 size by things like the number of employees
8 and - -
9 JOHN WERTIS : Something like a cider
III 10 mill would come under the Agricultural
11 Commerce at the top and - -
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Cider mill
yes ,
13 would be Agricultural Commerce .
14 JOHN WERTIS : And the other thing
15 that ' s not completely clear to me is retail
16 sales from the farm , that I think there ' s
17 some roadside stand ?
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
19 JOHN WERTIS : But say you start the
20 cider mill , you ' re going to sell the cider
21 right there , that would be permitted , right ?
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
23 JOHN WERTIS : Okay .
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact , one - - and
Public Informational Meeting 46
1 this is something that we have to take up
2 with the Ag & Markets people , you know ,
3 we ' re limiting the size of roadside stands
4 to 240 square feet . That doesn ' t say that
5 you can ' t have something larger , at least in
6 the Al District , because something that ' s
7 larger than 240 square feet would still
8 qualify under Agricultural Commerce - -
9 JOHN WERTIS : Right .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - okay ?
11 JOHN WERTIS : Thank you .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other
13 comments ? If you wish you can also - - I
14 have one - - do you want to make this comment
15 or you just want us to ?
16 TOM MYERS : Oh , I ' d just like you
17 all to look at it . Actually Kris wrote it
18 up .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you can
20 submit written comments . i have one here
21 that we don ' t have enough copies but I will
22 get them so everybody can have one to the
23 Town office or you can e - mail me .
24 You don ' t have a computer you can ' t ,
Public Informational Meeting 47
1 all right ?
2 DAVE KLINE : Got one of them .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You can e - mail
4 me at the address . If anybody wants to know
5 it ' s on the web page . Does anybody really
6 want to know it right now ? I could tell
7 you . It ' s available anywhere you want to
8 find it on the web page . So , if you want to
9 send comments or if you want to write
10 comments down , send them - - send them to the
11 Town Hall or however you want to get them to
12 us , that ' d be fine too . So , we ' ll be taking
13 those kind of comments until we decide where
14 we ' re going with this Ordinance .
15 Stan .
16 STAN KOSKINEN : Stan Koskinen . And
17 I would like to ask this gentleman if he has
18 anything invested in the Town of Ulysses ?
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Do I have anything
20 invested in the Town ?
21 STAN KOSKINEN : Do you own real
22 estate ?
23 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I do not .
24 STAN KOSKINEN : And you ' re planning
Public Informational Meeting 48
1 for the rest of us - -
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I am not .
3 STAN KOSKINEN : - - that do ?
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , I am not
5 planning .
6 STAN KOSKINEN : You ' re stating the
7 fact - -
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' m advising the
9 Town of - -
10 STAN KOSKINEN : Oh , okay .
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I have produced a
12 document for the Town Board ' s consideration
13 under the Town Board ' s guidance .
14 STAN KOSKINEN : Most of us people
15 live here and we have some investments in
16 real estate .
17 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : And we have
18 conflicted interests too .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well - -
20 BOARD MEMBER TYLER : He doesn ' t .
21 STAN KOSKINEN : That ' s all I got to
22 say .
23 SANDY KLINE : Sandy Kline . I had a
24 question . When you said you were drawing up
Public Informational Meeting 49
1 the site plan you went according to the tax
2 maps , so in other words you took anybody
3 that had an acre or two went into
4 Residential , anybody that owned more than 10
5 acres or so was automatically Agricultural ?
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
8 SANDY KLINE : Because that ' s the way
9 it ' s appearing is like now you ' re saying all
10 Agricultural you got to have a minimum of
11 three acres or four acres . So , when you
12 based the Agriculture even though we don ' t
13 have a farm and we ' re Agriculture all around
14 us is Residential , but because we have over
15 a certain amount of acres we ' re
16 automatically Agricultural .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
18 SANDY KLINE : Because that ' s the way
19 it ' s appearing on your map . You ' re saying
20 is you took each parcel - -
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s your
22 interpretation .
23 SANDY KLINE : Yes . Okay . But you
24 said you took each parcel when you were
Public Informational Meeting 50
1 keeping the maps and you took the tax map to
2 figure out the size and the shape to know
3 how to figure it in . So , you ' re kind of
4 pinpointing to people that have over 10
5 acres are automatically Agricultural .
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Wrong , okay . Wrong .
7 There ' s a ton of properties all through
8 here , all through here , that are more than
9 10 acres in size , okay ( indicating ) ? To
i
10 determine the boundaries of this
11 Agricultural lands the basic principles were
12 the land is Agriculture whether you ' re
13 farming it or somebody else is . Another
14 issue is the quality of the soils on the
15 property . And another thing that I looked
16 at was something called contiguity , i . e .
17 it ' s connected to other Agricultural land .
18 And then finally is it lands that at some
19 point in the future would be needed for
20 possible development or to accommodate
21 future Residential growth in the Town of
22 Ulysses ? It was those four or five things
23 that I used .
24 And there ' s a lot of Agricultural
Public Informational Meeting 51
1 land in the Town of Ulysses that is not in
2 that category .
3 And I think is the aerial image still
4 up in Town Hall ?
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : You can go take a
7 look at that aerial image .
8 DAVE KLINE : I ' ve got one last
9 before we leave . Seeing I don ' t buy the
10 Ithaca Journal do you know when the next
11 meeting is ? If not , Marsha , would you call
12 me ?
13 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA ; ( Shakes head )
14 DAVE KLINE : Now you ' re telling me
15 you can ' t do that ?
16 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : David , that ' s
17 like discrimination . Not that if you call
18 me I can ' t tell you , but I can ' t single out .
19 DAVE KLINE : Can I call you ?
20 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : Yes
you can .
21 DAVE KLINE : Okay . Thank you .
22 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But that ' s why
23 we can ' t send things . If one person gets
24 it , the other , it ' s discrimination .
Public Informational Meeting 52
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sad to say but
2 that ' s life .
3 DAVE KLINE : You ' ll get a phone call
4 from me .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Fine . That ' s
6 good .
7 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : There ' s none
8 scheduled at this time .
9 DAVE KLINE : Okay .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We are
11 considering having another one . We ' re not
12 sure . We ' re certainly going to have a
13 public hearing when we get down to where we
14 think we have it done so there will be at
15 least one more meeting , but we may have
16 another one of these informal type things in
17 between the time .
18 DAVE KLINE : How many did you say
19 landowners were so I can write that down ?
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How many what ?
21 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : There ' s
22 approximately 3 , 000 tax parcels .
23 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : There ' s a pretty
24 important informational meeting coming up
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53
1 with someone from Ag & Markets , right ?
2 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Yes .
3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : That might be of
4 interest to you because that kind of input
5 and your input is what we ' re looking at
6 coming right up .
7
8 7 : 00 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : The 17th at
PM .
9 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Yeah , thank you .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Town Hall .
11 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : And that ' s going
12 to be at Town Hall . There ' s also one at the
13 Cooperative Extension with Ron Meade from Ag
14 & Markets and that ' s going to start at 11 : 30
15 and that ' s on Ag land protection . Yeah ,
16 he ' s going to be down there and then he ' s
17 going to come up to you because he ' s
18 addressed the particular concerns in there .
19 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Is the Planning
20 Board having additional meetings on the
21 subject ?
22 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Not Planning .
23 JOHN WERTIS : George , how does the
24 Al District correlate with the Ag District ,
Public Informational Meeting
54
1 the State Ag District ? Is it easy to show
2 us that or not ?
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Actually we - - we ' ve
4 got a map of the Ag District and the Ag
5 District actually covers a lot more land .
6 Much of the Town in fact is in the Ag
7 District , including the Rural Residential
8 and some of the land proposed for the
9 Moderate Density Residential .
10 JOHN WERTIS : So , you could have a
11 farmer in the Rural Residential ?
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Agriculture
14 is - - is allowable in any District , so what
15 that means is if you are in the New York
16 State County Sanctioned Ag District
17 regardless of where you are in this District
18 you ' re still protected by the New York State
19 Ag & Markets Ag District protections .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . That ' s - -
21 again , Agriculture is allowed in R1 Rural
22 Residential and it ' s also - - again , it ' s a
23 permitted uses in Moderate - - one of the
24 permitted uses in the Moderate Density
Public Informational Meeting 55
1 Residential District .
2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I would say that
3 the State Sanctioned Ag District probably
4 covers 90 percent of the Town of Ulysses .
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Any other questions ?
6 ( Whereupon there was no verbal
7 response )
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Comments ?
9 ( Whereupon there was no verbal
10 response )
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s it . If
12 you want to this is your last chance .
13 ( Whereupon there was no verbal
14 response )
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Thank you .
16 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded
17 at 8 : 28 PM )
18 * * * * *
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PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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56
1 STATE OF NEW YORK .
2 COUNTY OF CORTLAND :
3
4
5 I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby
6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate
7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a
8 Public Informational Meeting , held in Trumansburg ,
9 New York , on the 4th day of March , 2004 .
10
11
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13
14
15 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR t �I (
Notary Public r +
16 PDQ Court Reporters
746 Route 41
17 Smithville Flats , NY 13841
( 607 ) 863 - 4911
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